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Gollywog
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Debussy's brain
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 Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:37 am Post subject: |
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CentralCali wrote:
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| How many of us are currently excelling in the field our mothers dreamed of for us? |
You are absolutely right!
When I was a little child, my mother used to read me bedtime stories about Korea. The last thing she told me, before I headed off for college, was, "Golly, I want you to become an English teacher in Korea when you grow up."
So here I am!
And I am the best dammm English teacher Korea could ever hope to see.
Too bad she never lived to see her dream for me fulfilled. |
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dimitri31
Joined: 24 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: |
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Whatever, I'm done. Still don't think it is a bad idea to bring in university students to teach in this very unorganized country full of confusion.
It's not much different from hagwons hiring someone based on their skin color and appearance rather than personality and credentials.
If the pay drops considerably before my objectives are met, I will be leaving. In the meantime, for me it's a small sacrifice that has its good days and bad. |
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hugekebab
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| Young FRANKenstein wrote: |
| hugekebab wrote: |
| Here though, in a university, it's a joke; the grades are rigged, we are essentially not allowed to fail students, even the ones who never come to class. We are passing third year students (under orders) that have never been to a lesson and got 10 percent when they turned up for one of the exams, 'because they are working'. Grades are 'negotiable'. |
Start working for a real uni, then. I can fail as many students as I wish, regardless of their excuses. I gave a senior student a C+ this past semester, which pretty much crushed his graduating average. Tough shit. He didn't do the work. He ended up crying like a little bitch to the head of the department, but I still didn't change it. Unless and until Korean universities demand academic integrity and standards from both their students and teachers, universities in Korea will always be seen as the joke they are. |
In my opinion there aren't really any decent unis here. 1 or 2 of the major ones but that's it and even they are on the bottom rung of internationally recognised universities, actually I see you kind of agree with me. |
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hugekebab
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| aka Dave wrote: |
| Young FRANKenstein wrote: |
| hugekebab wrote: |
| Here though, in a university, it's a joke; the grades are rigged, we are essentially not allowed to fail students, even the ones who never come to class. We are passing third year students (under orders) that have never been to a lesson and got 10 percent when they turned up for one of the exams, 'because they are working'. Grades are 'negotiable'. |
Start working for a real uni, then. I can fail as many students as I wish, regardless of their excuses. I gave a senior student a C+ this past semester, which pretty much crushed his graduating average. Tough shit. He didn't do the work. He ended up crying like a little bitch to the head of the department, but I still didn't change it. Unless and until Korean universities demand academic integrity and standards from both their students and teachers, universities in Korea will always be seen as the joke they are. |
I agree. My boss, head of the department, encouraged me to be tough on my students (albeit, for kind of a weird reason. I had crowded classes this semester, and she said "If you're tough on them, not so many will want to take your class." This is my first semester here, btw).
And I did give a student who didn't show for the final an F. That's right, F. No way I'm passing someone who doesn't show for the final. On the mid-term he came in and said "I give up". I made him do it but there was little I could do to help that kid. He was a glaring exception, however.
I teach in the department, not at a language school, and I teach all English teaching majors or double majors. The students are very motivated (though English skill varies).
One thing that bugs me about letting the students teach is, it's just the cheap, easy way out. Hiring unqualified labor to cut costs in any field really hurts all concerned in the long run. A four year degree isn't necessarily a qualification, but at least it shows you have the maturity to finish something. |
Firstly I'm not writing what I'm about to write to be combative, just wanted to make that clear (on these boards it can get heated.)
If you look back at both your comments above, you both emphasise the fact that you were 'allowed' to give students fails or a C+ (you don't say 'allowed', but this is implied, certainly by the former quote above.) By implication this means that the university system here is trash. In no discussion of British universities would lecturers even mention that they were 'allowed' to give bad grades, because it is understood and accepted that to give bad grades and to fail students is the normal, legitimate,completely accepted and inherently essential practice of all British academic institutions (and any bona fide academic institution worth its salt from anywhere around the globe.) Christ, even the shitty ex-polytechnics have standards back home. Here, ethically corrupt institutions are the norm.
Last edited by hugekebab on Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:45 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Join Me
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| dimitri31 wrote: |
| Join Me wrote: |
| dimitri31 wrote: |
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| I am guessing you have been living in a dark closet for the last few months? The government? The government can't even get Koreans to eat cheeseburgers let alone get them to accept English as a second language of Korea. |
Precisely the reason why I had written, "It's fear. That's what is it. Fear of change, I tell ya..." in a previous post.
so what's the deal, man...why you a hater? Hate the game, not the player...hater!!  |
I don't hate you. I just think you don't have a clue how much time, effort and money has already been thrown at this problem. Your solution is like giving more money to welfare recipients. It sounds wonderful but it just isn't going to do anyone any good. Koreans (and Korean society) just doesn't share the aspiration to become what you and so many others believe they should be. The problem isn't lack of resources. The problem is lack of desire. I have been here for several years now. Each year more resources are put towards the cause of Koreans learning English. Each year they rank at the bottom of the list for English ability. Lack of resources just isn't the problem here. |
And I think you don't have anything better to do than to come up with things that aren't even mentioned beforehand. And to do so, just to drag something on for who knows what reason. Who mentioned anything about a lack of resources? What is written above is something entirely different. I'll let you do the task of looking for that.
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| And afraid? Afraid of what? How can Koreans be afraid of change when they live an isolated life in Korea where change can easily be ignored? |
Ok, well they want to learn Engllish, right? Yet, do you think they are willing to make English a second language here? I think it's agreed that more likely not than so. What about their willingness to change laws to make it easier for foreign investment in the country? And what about the banking situation here that we are all too familiar with? Why not change all of this? If it's not fear, than what is it? I think there's a fear of a loss of national identity. |
You're the one who is talking about making English prevalent in every aspect of Koreans' lives. This requires additional time, money and manpower. If that isn't throwing more resources at the problem, I guess I am wrong.
Koreans want to learn English? Really? Is it that Koreans want to learn English or Korean academics and politicians want Koreans to learn English. Ask any kid why they are studying English. They don't have a clue. Ask their parents why their kid is studying English. They don't have a clue either. They just know everyone else is obsessed with English and if they don't send their kid to learn English their kid will suffer. Why? Again, they don't have a clue as 99% of the parents don't even use English for their own jobs, except when the occasional English teacher walks in off the street. And, if the society wasn't so obsessed with English that would take care of that problem.
Do Koreans fear losing their national identity? Maybe they are just happy with being nationalists and don't want others to tell them how to live. In America, we call that "freedom" not "fear." I am American and I don't see many Americans jumping up and down to make Spanish an official language even though there is more reason to make Spanish an official language in America than there is to make English an official language in Korea. Are Americans all afraid? |
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dimitri31
Joined: 24 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:29 am Post subject: |
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You know what, you're absolutely right about Koreans being told to learn English.
I am American as well, and I can see where you're coming from in relation to making Spanish a second language. Just don't see it happening nor the need to do so.
However, comparatively speaking, Americans aren't spending on Spanish language lessons for their in kids like they do here in Korea. Besides, English has become the language of choice for the international community.
About all Americans being afraid, I wouldn't say that. We are a very brave and resilient people. I do think there is a culture of fear back home though, but that is a whole other topic.
In general, I'd say Americans are much more open-minded to change than Koreans are today. |
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rusty1983
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: |
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These are school positions? Theyre obviously having trouble getting the people in so it seems like a sensible solution from their point of view.
Looking back now, Id say I would have done this when I was at Uni, but in fact dont think I would have. I think the ones that do will have a genuine interest in Asia etc and it could be a great opportunity for them and look fantastic on their cv.
The poorest students might be more mature students anyway, and be focused enough to see it through.
I think if I would have done it as a student and not liked it, I would have been more ready to leave then than I wouldve in the last year.
A bit more debt back then wouldve hardly registered, whereas now it'd be crippling. As would having to go home to my parents and try to start out again, whereas if I was at uni I couldve been happy knowing I could get a job at home, pay no rent and look forward to going back to uni.
Also, a program like this is interesting cos its linked into universities. The TEFL teachers in Korea now are completely unprotected but University students can and will tell their universities if they get messed around. If the experiences are more negative than positive then I dont see them getting behind this scheme for a long time.
Dont be so high and mighty about students because I bet there are many who do this who will be more repsectful and get more out of it than alot of you will. Looking down on them is fairly presumptuous and judgemental. Also, students are full of wonder and life, and I often found my classes worked better if I acted younger than I am and went into a silly student-style comedy routine.
Some people have said that stuents wont be able to control the classes, but dont the public school jobs provide a Korean to do this? |
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Gatsby
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: |
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rusty1983 wrote:
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| Some people have said that stuents wont be able to control the classes, but dont the public school jobs provide a Korean to do this? |
Theoretically.
When they feel like showing up.
And if they like you.
And if they are able to control the students, themselves.
And if you don't mind seeing a Korean teacher beat your students in front of you. |
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captain kirk
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Join Me wrote: |
Koreans want to learn English? Really? Is it that Koreans want to learn English or Korean academics and politicians want Koreans to learn English.
Ask any kid why they are studying English. They don't have a clue. Ask their parents why their kid is studying English. They don't have a clue either.
They just know everyone else is obsessed with English and if they don't send their kid to learn English their kid will suffer. Why? Again, they don't have a clue as 99% of the parents don't even use English for their own jobs, except when the occasional English teacher walks in off the street.
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Weird huh? So now you have Kyongi province's plan to bring in undergrads to teach regular classes in public schools. Not only is the curriculum same old lowest common denominator suited level, undergrads will be delivering it. They won't speak Korean even a bit so as to be able to get around the stalled curriculum and lighten things up a bit.
They'll be like 'deer in the headlights'. A Kcoteacher will have to stage manage them, help them go to the bathroom. They'll be sure to follow the curriculum because they haven't the experience to get around the ailing curriculum. Pure face time. Absolute token effect. Looks good.
It's the same gov't agencies that popularize English that have decided hiring newbs is a great idea. The ESL-military-industrial complex for you conspiracy theory buffs. Yes, I'm joking.
It's all about appearances, very superficial. Just 'what we should do, study English, and that's why we're doing it'. Nobody really knows why and it's a communal movement. With newb foriegners to be caught up in the wave and plunked, dripping wet, fresh off the boat, at the front of a class to 'teach'. Haha, good one.
Business as usual, really. Just dumber than ever before. And that's saying something. |
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Gollywog
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Debussy's brain
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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Returning to the original topic of this thread:
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/06/117_26607.html
Has anyone spotted a key flaw in this plan?
They want to recruit students who have dropped out of college (presumably) for financial reasons. (Are they going to make applicants take an oath to this effect?)
And presumably, these students want to return to college and finish their degree, one hopes.
If they take a job paying about $18,000 a year, won't that disqualify them for future financial aid?
Put another way, if a student on financial aid leaves college for a year to take this job, he would be ineligible for further financial aid.
Unless he lies, of course. Which might not work. I mean, this is on your passport, etc. |
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Join Me
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| Gollywog wrote: |
Returning to the original topic of this thread:
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/06/117_26607.html
Has anyone spotted a key flaw in this plan?
They want to recruit students who have dropped out of college (presumably) for financial reasons. (Are they going to make applicants take an oath to this effect?)
And presumably, these students want to return to college and finish their degree, one hopes.
If they take a job paying about $18,000 a year, won't that disqualify them for future financial aid?
Put another way, if a student on financial aid leaves college for a year to take this job, he would be ineligible for further financial aid.
Unless he lies, of course. Which might not work. I mean, this is on your passport, etc. |
I was taking a walk today and the same thing came to my mind. How will someone prove they attended college or intend to go back? Just a few months ago you had to do everything short of have your mother call immigration and now anyone that wants to teach here will probably just have to sign a letter that states they previously attended college. What a f-ing joke immigration and the Ministry of Education are in Korea. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:27 am Post subject: |
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I didn't read that article as talking about drop-outs at all, before seeing people's comments. I thought they were talking about students who run short on money and could use a year or two out working in Korea to save up enough to continue. That would make more sense than just hiring people who drop out for financial - or what they claim are financial - reasons; and it fits with the perception (I almost said Korean perception but it's universal) that it's only acceptable to do ELT for 2 years max for the purpose of paying off a student loan.
Also I can't believe people are taking the idea of Korea making English a second language seriously. Does anyone think you could ever make a language like Korean a second language in an English-speaking country? The government can't work magic. English is just a tool the government uses to torture Korean citizens and keep them down! You have advanced degrees in software engineering and nanotechnology? Ah, but you can't speak English? No pay rise for you! |
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aka Dave
Joined: 02 May 2008
Location: Down by the river
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| hugekebab wrote: |
| aka Dave wrote: |
| Young FRANKenstein wrote: |
| hugekebab wrote: |
| Here though, in a university, it's a joke; the grades are rigged, we are essentially not allowed to fail students, even the ones who never come to class. We are passing third year students (under orders) that have never been to a lesson and got 10 percent when they turned up for one of the exams, 'because they are working'. Grades are 'negotiable'. |
Start working for a real uni, then. I can fail as many students as I wish, regardless of their excuses. I gave a senior student a C+ this past semester, which pretty much crushed his graduating average. Tough shit. He didn't do the work. He ended up crying like a little bitch to the head of the department, but I still didn't change it. Unless and until Korean universities demand academic integrity and standards from both their students and teachers, universities in Korea will always be seen as the joke they are. |
I agree. My boss, head of the department, encouraged me to be tough on my students (albeit, for kind of a weird reason. I had crowded classes this semester, and she said "If you're tough on them, not so many will want to take your class." This is my first semester here, btw).
And I did give a student who didn't show for the final an F. That's right, F. No way I'm passing someone who doesn't show for the final. On the mid-term he came in and said "I give up". I made him do it but there was little I could do to help that kid. He was a glaring exception, however.
I teach in the department, not at a language school, and I teach all English teaching majors or double majors. The students are very motivated (though English skill varies).
One thing that bugs me about letting the students teach is, it's just the cheap, easy way out. Hiring unqualified labor to cut costs in any field really hurts all concerned in the long run. A four year degree isn't necessarily a qualification, but at least it shows you have the maturity to finish something. |
Firstly I'm not writing what I'm about to write to be combative, just wanted to make that clear (on these boards it can get heated.)
If you look back at both your comments above, you both emphasise the fact that you were 'allowed' to give students fails or a C+ (you don't say 'allowed', but this is implied, certainly by the former quote above.) By implication this means that the university system here is trash. In no discussion of British universities would lecturers even mention that they were 'allowed' to give bad grades, because it is understood and accepted that to give bad grades and to fail students is the normal, legitimate,completely accepted and inherently essential practice of all British academic institutions (and any bona fide academic institution worth its salt from anywhere around the globe.) Christ, even the shitty ex-polytechnics have standards back home. Here, ethically corrupt institutions are the norm. |
First of all, in my Uni grading, there was no pressure applied either way. I wasn't "allowed" anything. My boss simply said be tough on the students.
However, there was a difference from when I was grading at the two other Universities I've taught at (UC Santa Barbara and University of Bordeaux in France).
The main thing is that A pluses exist here. A pluses are very rare in the UC system, and non-existent in the French system (anything above a 15/20 in the French system is extremely rare). Yet my boss said she gives 10 percent of her students A pluses. For me, an A plus paper is something that will be published in an academic journal.
In five years of grad school I got one A plus, and that was from a visiting prof who wasn't even a prof but a French poet. Also, in America A pluses have no impact on the GPA anyway (A= 4.0 A plus =4.0)
Now, is the Korean Uni system a fraud? I mean, at UCSB, there was a lot of serious studying going on. There was also a lot of serious partying going on. At the Univ. of Bordeaux our English classes met for 2 hours classes once a week (same as Korea). And the French students' English wasn't *that* much better than my Korean students, and French is far closer to English with tons of cognates, similar sentence structure, etc.
I will say there are 2 male profs in my English dept., older guys, whose English is utterly disgraceful. I mean, you're an English prof, I'd be embarassed to speak at a level lower than some 10 year olds in hagwons.
But when I think about my seniors studying for the English teachers exam, they are the most dedicated, commited students I've taught in 15 years of teaching. Their essays are thoughtful and interesting, albeit a bit conformist.
Which Universities have you taught at? Have you taught in a department or in a foreign language center, where you teach kids who don't want to learn English? |
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IncognitoHFX
Joined: 06 May 2007
Location: Yeongtong, Suwon
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| IncognitoHFX wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| IncognitoHFX wrote: |
| No one has been able to answer my question yet... Do these people require to have been (or be) enrolled in degree courses (University)? Or can they be registered in non-degree courses as well (Colleges / Community Colleges)? |
I'd love to know where you're getting your information about what GEDs and Community Colleges are. |
Colleges that don't offer degree programmes (trade schools). They haven't said they wouldn't accept them, so I'm assuming they will (or a lot of people will be accepted from these institutions). |
Then you should've said trade schools. Community Colleges in the United States do offer degrees. They offer Associate's Degrees. I got one myself. When I completed that degree, I took advantage of the transfer program my community college had with one of the "public ivy schools," the University of California at Davis. Care to guess that particular university's world ranking? In the United States, a community college absolutely is not a trade school.
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In Canada, you don't even need to have finished High School to go to a Community College and that goes for 95% of Community College programs. There are some Community College programs that require a BA or a BSc to get in, but they're more training specific and not actual degrees in and of themselves (extra credentials). Community Colleges in Canada are full of High School drop outs and the mentally challenged. |
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Young FRANKenstein
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| aka Dave wrote: |
| Young FRANKenstein wrote: |
| hugekebab wrote: |
| Here though, in a university, it's a joke; the grades are rigged, we are essentially not allowed to fail students, even the ones who never come to class. We are passing third year students (under orders) that have never been to a lesson and got 10 percent when they turned up for one of the exams, 'because they are working'. Grades are 'negotiable'. |
Start working for a real uni, then. I can fail as many students as I wish, regardless of their excuses. I gave a senior student a C+ this past semester, which pretty much crushed his graduating average. Tough shit. He didn't do the work. He ended up crying like a little bitch to the head of the department, but I still didn't change it. Unless and until Korean universities demand academic integrity and standards from both their students and teachers, universities in Korea will always be seen as the joke they are. |
I agree. My boss, head of the department, encouraged me to be tough on my students [...]
And I did give a student who didn't show for the final an F. That's right, F. No way I'm passing someone who doesn't show for the final. |
My uni has a policy about fails: no final or 10 absences are an automatic F. The teacher has NO leeway in its interpretation. The student must fail and tough shit for him. All other Fs are at the discretion of the teacher.
I'm not a hardass about it. (For the mandatory English credits at least) I will pass anyone who TRIES. Do the work, particiapte in class, don't cheat, and I'll give you the D. Be consistently late/absent, don't speak in class, don't do any class group work, don't do homework, and I'll have no guilt in handing you your F. Beg away, but it won't change your grade. |
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