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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:29 am Post subject: |
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Why is the name Danny Filk nowhere to be found on the website about this organization talking about torture at Guantanamo? The answer: They are different groups of people in different countries doing different kinds of work. If there is a connection or affiliation between them, you have not shown it, and when you get around to doing so, I'm not sure it will be relevant either.
The problems between Israel and the Palestinians don't seem at all relevant to this discussion, so I'm going to take a pass on explaining to you that the Isreali govt has a plethora of resources to document and describe violations by the Palestinians ... again, it's a different group of people and whatever biases they are not germane to whether torture occurred ion Guantanamo.
I think I could safely say that both groups that use this name are not philanthropic organizations, but rather humanitarian activists. The fact that they may or may not be biased does not mean that the allegations of torture are not accurate, though.
(Hint: the American military commanders in charge of the base in Cuba are also, shall we say, biased. Does that mean we must disbelieve everythig they say?) |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
Why is the name Danny Filk nowhere to be found on the website about this organization talking about torture at Guantanamo? The answer: They are different groups of people in different countries doing different kinds of work. If there is a connection or affiliation between them, you have not shown it, and when you get around to doing so, I'm not sure it will be relevant either.
They operate under the umbrella of the same name. If that's not a connection or affiliation I don't know how else I can prove it to you.
(Hint: the American military commanders in charge of the base in Cuba are also, shall we say, biased. Does that mean we must disbelieve everythig they say?) |
Not at all. However I would posit that we need to take their claims with a grain or two of salt. At least as much as I would take the claims of torture by the detainees or those who examined them. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
They operate under the umbrella of the same name. If that's not a connection or affiliation I don't know how else I can prove it to you.
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You can show associational or social congruencies, or ideological ones. For instance, when I have had to support a claim that the Animal Liberation Front (ALF) and the Environmental Liberation Front (ELF) are splinters of the same group so closely allied as to be for all purpose nearly the same, I find it pretty easy to point to names of individuals who are active in meetings, seminars and speaking events at the same times and places, and point to specific statements made by each group that posits a sympathetic resonance in terms of aims and methods.
However, when I looked at PHR and PHR-Israel I saw no names in common, and I saw that one of them foused primarily in the Mideast realm regarding Palestine and Israel and the other (the one we are talking about that authored the torture report) has programs addressing a variety of problems in different parts of the world from Darfur to El Salvador and various parts of Africa with regards to AIDS/HIV and other medical concerns.
What I find unfortunate is that it appears you have assuned an anti-Isrfeali bias based on a report made by a single source, which is itself biased, and that further, you have mistakenly assumed you were talking about the same people when it appears likely there might be noi connection at all between them - from everything I've been able to ascertain, it does appear you are mistaken.
It's a natural mistake, I suppose, but the three words "human" and "rights" and "physicians" are common enough in political discussion that a web search using those words will get the results you describe. If you want to assert bias to both groups on the basis of what one of the groups is up to, you'd do well to employ a little more diligence - without that diligence, it's as if you are handing down a conviction and sending one group to the gulag of disbelief without benefit of a fair hearing in court.
That would be unfair, of course. It would be almost as unfair as trying to say that OJ Simpson is legally guilty when in fact he was acquitted and only found to be "responsible" in a civil trial ("that's good enough for me"). I hope you're going to avoid that kind of unfairness, and I have every hope that you will try to do so. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
[
Their website says not a word I can find about Israel, so your contentions do puzzle me. They are doing work in Darfur, Mexico, El Salvador, and AIDS/HIV outreach in various places - not a word anywhere about Israel, pro or anti. Oh, I won't claim that they are free from bias - as I've said that's hardly possible - but I don't think their bias lies in precisely the "agenda" you are speaking of. |
(bolding mine)
Now that is passing strange. I went to the website you so kindly provided (thanks BTW), found the search engine for their library, choose "torture" as the issue and "Israel" as the country and lo and behold three articles from PHR appeared.
http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/library/phr-library-search.html?document-type=&subject=torture&country=israel |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:58 am Post subject: |
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Great. Wonderful. You found some pages I hadn't found.
Are you asserting that this is the group that your biased website claims is a biased humanitarian organization? You ain't there yet, and once you get there you've given us one biased group that calls another biased who in turn is called out for bias by a third group. Are you asserting that a human rights group that tries to help Palestians must by necessity be biased against the state of Israel? You are at the very least strongly implying this. And even if you manage to do something besides blow smoke - what IS your point here? Um, did you notice that the library search items you found are dated 8 years ago, 10 years ago and - lemme look - yeah, 20 years ago ...
And I'm sure you're going to get around to pointing to some relevance to the question of torture at Guantanamo Bay. You are, eventually - right? Can you give us some clue about what your goal here is? |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:30 am Post subject: |
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Major General Antonio Taguba, USA (Ret.)
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This report tells the largely untold human story of what happened to detainees in our custody when the Commander-in-Chief and those under him authorized a systematic regime of torture. This story is not only written in words: It is scrawled for the rest of these individuals� lives on their bodies and minds. Our national honor is stained by the indignity and inhumane treatment these men received from their captors.
In order for these individuals to suffer the wanton cruelty to which they were subjected, a government policy was promulgated to the field whereby the Geneva Conventions and the Uniform Code of Military Justice were disregarded. The UN Convention Against Torture was indiscriminately ignored. And the healing professions, including physicians and psychologists, became complicit in the willful infliction of harm against those the Hippocratic Oath demands they protect.
After years of disclosures by government investigations, media accounts, and reports from human rights organizations, there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes. The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account.
The former detainees in this report, each of whom is fighting a lonely and difficult battle to rebuild his life, require reparations for what they endured, comprehensive psycho-social and medical assistance, and even an official apology from our government. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
Great. Wonderful. You found some pages I hadn't found.
Are you asserting that this is the group that your biased website claims is a biased humanitarian organization?
So you are claiming that there are TWO organizations in Israel both with the same name and same aims.  Come on, nobody's going to buy that.
You ain't there yet,
But I'm a heck of a lot closer than you are. You couldn't find a single thing about Israel, something that took me less than 30 seconds. And you claimed that one of the articles was 20 years old, when it was less than 13.
and once you get there you've given us one biased group that calls another biased who in turn is called out for bias by a third group. Are you asserting that a human rights group that tries to help Palestians must by necessity be biased against the state of Israel? You are at the very least strongly implying this. And even if you manage to do something besides blow smoke - what IS your point here? Um, did you notice that the library search items you found are dated 8 years ago, 10 years ago and - lemme look - yeah, 20 years ago ...
What? The oldest source is not even 13 years old. And what does the age of the articles have to do with it? By that logic one could say, well most events in history never happened because those documents are hundreds of years old. You're really reaching here. And if you can't get something as straight and simple as basic dates one has to wonder if you really have any clue. Come on, this is beneath you.
And I'm sure you're going to get around to pointing to some relevance to the question of torture at Guantanamo Bay. You are, eventually - right? Can you give us some clue about what your goal here is? |
Eventually, yes. Just laying the background. Now to be clear. Are you asserting that there are two different organizations in Israel both with the same name and same aims, yet are completely different and completely unassociated with each other. Because it sure looks like you are from where I am standing. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:20 am Post subject: |
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From PHR report:
For example, three former detainees evaluated by
PHR reported that in Guant�namo they were kept in
extremely hot or cold interrogation rooms, chained in a
crouching position to a ring on the floor for eighteen to
twenty hours. Two of the Iraqi former detainees reported
losing consciousness as a result of being subjected to
stress positions..
(...)
In addition to the beatings upon arrest, initial
detention and transfer described earlier, some of the
detainees were physically assaulted again later during
their detention. Two former detainees were sodomized
with a broomstick or a rifle at Abu Ghraib and three were
subjected to electric shock (two in Iraq and one while at
Kandahar, Afghanistan).
(...)
Many of the physical assaults reported would likely
have resulted in bruises and soft tissue injuries that
would not leave lasting physical marks. However, the
bone scan findings of six individuals, and scars and
healed lesions observed on physical examination of
all detainees corroborated their specific allegations
of physical assault. Scarring on Yasser�s thumbs was
highly consistent with the scarring caused by electric
shock. Further, reports of rape and sexual assault were
corroborated in two cases by medical examination.
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:34 am Post subject: |
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Do us all a favor and don't tell me what I am asserting, not when you are getting it as wrong as you were before about OJ Simpson's guilt opr innocence.
| Quote: |
So you are claiming that there are TWO organizations in Israel both with the same name and same aims. Rolling Eyes Come on, nobody's going to buy that. |
Don't tell lies about people, TUM. Don't do that. You are fond of using the quote finction exactly, so you have no excuses.
| Quote: |
The oldest source is not even 13 years old. And what does the age of the articles have to do with it? |
The Casualties of Conflict
PHR was the first human rights group to enter Israel shortly after the intifada began. In early 1988, a PHR delegation visited hospitals, blood banks, clinics, and homes in Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip to investigate the medical consequences of civil disturbances and police and military actions. These actions included systematic beatings and use of high-velocity live ammunition, tear gas, and rubber bullets. The team examined and interviewed 103 patients, most of whom had been wounded within the preceding 24 hours and had similar wound patterns. This landmark report details the team's medical findings and concludes that Israeli soldiers and police participated in an uncontrolled epidemic of violence in the West Bank and Gaza Strip..
2008 (now) MINUS 1988 = 20 years.
There is no relevance to the Gaza Strip. That is another topic. There is no relevance to things that happened 15 years prior to the torture abuses under discussion. If you have relevance, show it and stop boring us.
Nore from the PHR report.
It is now recognized that after September 11, 2001,
officials within the Bush Administration radically
changed the manner in which detainees in US custody
were treated and interrogated. Administration officials,
including White House and Department of Justice lawyers,
denied the full protection of the Geneva Conventions to
certain detainees in US custody and re-interpreted US
laws and international treaties14 so as to permit inter-
rogation techniques previously found to be unlawful by
courts and oversight bodies responsible for reporting
on torture. These techniques had also been classified
as human rights abuses by the US State Department
when perpetrated by other countries.15 The public record
now abundantly shows how, starting in 2002, the Defense
Department began authorizing the use of highly coercive
interrogation methods, among them long-term isolation,
stress positions, severe humiliation, and sensory deprivation,
first at Guant�namo Bay and later in Iraq.16 While
a few low-level military personnel have been prosecuted
for their actions in prisoner abuse, officials higher up
the military and civilian chains of command have not yet
been held to account. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
Do us all a favor and don't tell me what I am asserting, not when you are getting it as wrong as you were before about OJ Simpson's guilt opr innocence.
What are you talking about? I said it was good enough for ME=MY PERSONAL OPINION. Besides which "legally innocent" and "actually innocent can be two different things. We're both old enough to know that.
And what relevance does this have to PHR's actions?
| Quote: |
So you are claiming that there are TWO organizations in Israel both with the same name and same aims. Rolling Eyes Come on, nobody's going to buy that. |
The first sentence was supposed to be a question. So you got me on a punctuation error. Good for you.
But anyway what are you claiming? You said that PHR and the group I cited were two different organizations. But as the articles I linked to show, if that is so, both are in Israel. So to be clear, are you asserting that there are two different groups in Israel both calling themselves PHR?
Don't tell lies about people, TUM. Don't do that. You are fond of using the quote finction exactly, so you have no excuses.
| Quote: |
The oldest source is not even 13 years old. And what does the age of the articles have to do with it? |
[b]The Casualties of Conflict
PHR was the first human rights group to enter Israel shortly after the intifada began. In early 1988, a PHR delegation visited hospitals, blood banks, clinics, and homes in Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip to investigate the medical consequences of civil disturbances and police and military actions. These actions included systematic beatings and use of high-velocity live ammunition, tear gas, and rubber bullets. The team examined and interviewed 103 patients, most of whom had been wounded within the preceding 24 hours and had similar wound patterns. This landmark report details the team's medical findings and concludes that Israeli soldiers and police participated in an uncontrolled epidemic of violence in the West Bank and Gaza Strip..
2008 (now) MINUS 1988 = 20 years.
Nice try, but I clearly said the age of the ARTICLES, (the SOURCE) not the incident.
There is no relevance to the Gaza Strip. That is another topic. There is no relevance to things that happened 15 years prior to the torture abuses under discussion. If you have relevance, show it and stop boring us.
It is relevant as it has a direct bearing as to PHR's agenda.
Nore from the PHR report.
It is now recognized that after September 11, 2001,
officials within the Bush Administration radically
changed the manner in which detainees in US custody
were treated and interrogated. Administration officials,
including White House and Department of Justice lawyers,
denied the full protection of the Geneva Conventions to
certain detainees in US custody and re-interpreted US
laws and international treaties14 so as to permit inter-
rogation techniques previously found to be unlawful by
courts and oversight bodies responsible for reporting
on torture. These techniques had also been classified
as human rights abuses by the US State Department
when perpetrated by other countries.15 The public record
now abundantly shows how, starting in 2002, the Defense
Department began authorizing the use of highly coercive
interrogation methods, among them long-term isolation,
stress positions, severe humiliation, and sensory deprivation,
first at Guant�namo Bay and later in Iraq.16 While
a few low-level military personnel have been prosecuted
for their actions in prisoner abuse, officials higher up
the military and civilian chains of command have not yet
been held to account. |
Just answer the question or there is no point in carrying this discussion any further. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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There's no discussion going on here. You are misrepresenting me. Either learn how to use the quote function - it's been years, TUM, no excuse by now - or simply state what you want to say without referencing other people at all.
If you think this group Physicians for Human Rights (National Office, Cambridge, MA with another office in Washington DC) is lying about what they say they have witnessed from their examinations of detainees at Guantanamo, then by all means say that they are lying and tell us why you think so. If your only support is that you don't like what some people are doing who have a similar name and who are far away in another part of the world, and who may or may not be affilliated, then say that also.
I'd much rather hear what YOU have to say rather than watch you tell us all what I am saying, or what erroneously you think I am saying. Frankly, I just think that's more useful for everyone.
The point of the whole OJ Simpson thing is that your standards of proof are whimsical and convenient and ultimately self-serving. You won't believe that the Bushies lied to get us into the Iraq War unless there is a trial and impeachment (while you simultaneously say this will never happen because the powers that be won't allow it) and you say that Bush and his cronies are innocent until proven guilty. Meanwhile, you will assert that OJ Simpson is guilty even though he was tried and acquitted of the crimes he was accused of.
Now, it seems, you agree with what I was saying before, and all along: ""legally innocent" and "actually innocent can be two different things. We're both old enough to know that." But it's not what you have said in the past - " A trial and conviction would convince me." But ... a trial and acquittal would not?
I have to wonder what you will be saying tomorrow.
For the last time, my friend, unless you can find some link between the people with headquarters in Cambridge MA, and some other people operating in Israel, then I'm afraid I'm just going to keep yawning at your references to things that happened in Palestine 20 years ago - which are things, by the way, which you haven't even bothered to show indicate anything that ought to compel our disbelief, anyway.
It's not relevant to Guantanamo and AbuGhraib in 2003 and it's not relevant to what's happening now, or the report about torture in 2008 that we're discussing at this moment. Things are not relevant just because you want them to be and not because you want to say they are - they are only relevant after you have shown them to be relevant.
And you haven't - and I doubt you ever will.
If have some reason not to believe what is said in the report about torture abuses at Guantanamo, I'll be happy to hear it. Do you have anything like that? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
There's no discussion going on here. You are misrepresenting me. Either learn how to use the quote function - it's been years, TUM, no excuse by now - or simply state what you want to say without referencing other people at all.
If you think this group Physicians for Human Rights (National Office, Cambridge, MA with another office in Washington DC) is lying about what they say they have witnessed from their examinations of detainees at Guantanamo, then by all means say that they are lying and tell us why you think so. If your only support is that you don't like what some people are doing who have a similar name and who are far away in another part of the world, and who may or may not be affilliated, then say that also.
I do not think (per se) that they are outright lying. However how do we know that said injuries to the detainees did not happen BEFORE they were handed over or kidnapped? As PHR admits themselves they did not have access to the detainees' medical history.
I'd much rather hear what YOU have to say rather than watch you tell us all what I am saying, or what erroneously you think I am saying. Frankly, I just think that's more useful for everyone.
Fine then. I think that they are taking a few stories at face value and drawing massively misleading conclusions based primarily on said stories. From the CNN article "However, the incidents [the 11 detaines' treatment] documented are consistent with findings of other investigations iinto government treatment" "making it reasonable to conclude that these detainees were not the only ones abused but are representative of a much larger number of detainees subjected to torture and ill treatment while in U.S. custody"
Last I checked, supposition and guesswork were not acceptable standards of proof...or of anything much else. Why did they treat only 11 detainees? Why did they not treat more to verify their conclusions? Did they find that those 11 were exceptional cases? I'm always wary of people who take very small samples and claim them to be "representative".
The point of the whole OJ Simpson thing is that your standards of proof are whimsical and convenient and ultimately self-serving. You won't believe that the Bushies lied to get us into the Iraq War unless there is a trial and impeachment (while you simultaneously say this will never happen because the powers that be won't allow it) and you say that Bush and his cronies are innocent until proven guilty. Meanwhile, you will assert that OJ Simpson is guilty even though he was tried and acquitted of the crimes he was accused of.
While I did indeed say, I also pointed out (tongue placed firmly in cheek) that my powers of reading the future are limited, and that such a thing (Bush and cronies placed on trial) may indeed somehow yet occur, my assurances to the contrary notwithstanding. Same goes for a civil trial. I will take this opportunity to state it here. If Bush and cronies are found guilty/responsible in a criminal/civil trial then I will believe that they are guilty/responsible of whatever charges are laid against them. Same goes for OJ.
Now, it seems, you agree with what I was saying before, and all along: ""legally innocent" and "actually innocent can be two different things. We're both old enough to know that." But it's not what you have said in the past - " A trial and conviction would convince me." But ... a trial and acquittal would not?
If only the one trial and accquittal then yes. But that was not the case here
I have to wonder what you will be saying tomorrow.
Same as I have always said
For the last time, my friend, unless you can find some link between the people with headquarters in Cambridge MA, and some other people operating in Israel, then I'm afraid I'm just going to keep yawning at your references to things that happened in Palestine 20 years ago - which are things, by the way, which you haven't even bothered to show indicate anything that ought to compel our disbelief, anyway.
It's not relevant to Guantanamo and AbuGhraib in 2003 and it's not relevant to what's happening now, or the report about torture in 2008 that we're discussing at this moment. Things are not relevant just because you want them to be and not because you want to say they are - they are only relevant after you have shown them to be relevant.
And you haven't - and I doubt you ever will.
If have some reason not to believe what is said in the report about torture abuses at Guantanamo, I'll be happy to hear it. Do you have anything like that? |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: |
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Okay, cool. You've stated your opinion without bringing in a lot of foofaw about Palestine during the Intefada.
PHR did more than talk to the detainees, however. The reason their opinion is more valuable than yours and mine is that they are trained medical doctors and they performed physical examinations. It might have crossed your mind that the P in PHR stands for <physicians.>
And, so, I will have to quote again a passage I showed you last night, but which you might not have read.
| Quote: |
Many of the physical assaults reported would likely
have resulted in bruises and soft tissue injuries that
would not leave lasting physical marks. However, the
bone scan findings of six individuals, and scars and
healed lesions observed on physical examination of
all detainees corroborated their specific allegations
of physical assault. Scarring on Yasser�s thumbs was
highly consistent with the scarring caused by electric
shock. Further, reports of rape and sexual assault were
corroborated in two cases by medical examination. |
It's from the text of the report, posted online at the website of those fine folks who have headquarters in Cambridge Massachussets. I'm not saying it's enough to put all dounts to rest or to bring convictions in a court of law, but it's a far cry from "taking a few stories at face value and drawing massively misleading conclusions based primarily on said stories." Since it is coming from people who have medical training, I guess most people would say that whatever opinions they did come to were better inforrmed than if you or I had sat in a room with these detainees.
As for why only 11, I guess only the wardens and keepers at Guantanamo will be able to tell us for sure why more were not allowed to be examined, but what we DO know is that a single one of the 11 has been accused or charged with any crime at all. Can't speak for you, but I have a feeling that being held incommunicado and unable to get word to my family for years on end and all for a crime that I never committed ... even aside from the physical abuse, that in itself might feel like a kind of torture to me. But, hey, that's just me.
At the very least, there is plenty in all this for me, as an American, to feel ashamed of my country over.
Bada-BING! I was able to make this relevant to the thread topic. Cool.
Last edited by The Bobster on Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
| I, for one, hope they crack down on people who pop into discussions and make non sequitur remarks and contribute nothing at all to furthur the discussion. |
djkhfawkfhoawehfo;qwhrfwn rt,2q nrolsifhaw or jvq3o j2
Pah pah pah!!!
Just couldn't resist - tehehehe! |
That's probably the most relevant and useful comment I've seen on this board in a long time.
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