Korean Job Discussion Forums :: View topic - Gas could fall to $2 if Congress acts, analysts say

Speak Korean Now!

Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!

Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"

FAQ

Memberlist

Usergroups

Profile

Gas could fall to $2 if Congress acts, analysts say
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next

Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:56 am Post subject:

Pluto wrote:

regicide wrote:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

If speculators, insiders, manipulators and capitalists in general are causing the problem and it's foolish to look to the government, just what is the solution? I ask you Zenas because you understand the world much better than anyone.

"because you understand the world much better than anyone."

The guy( Zenus) seems to know what he is talking about, but

"much better than anyone"

Yata- - you usually don't believe anything, then you believe everything.

Others, take note.

Are the same people who shot JFK and RFK back in the 60s the same people driving up the price of commodities and crashing the dollar today?

Quote:

Kindly name one problem government has solved.

bringing an end to the war with Japan. Wink

Zenas

Joined: 17 May 2008

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:59 am Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

The problem being high oil prices?

Abolish the Federal Reserve, return to Constitutionally sound money.

The price of gas in 1968 dollars was four gallons per one ounce 90% silver dollar. The price of oil today is four gallons per ounce 90% silver dollar. [Silver is $17 per ounce today].
__________________________________

Quote:

bringing an end to the war with Japan.

The US caused the Japan war against the US with the Japanese embargo - ie siege. The US government wanted to stop Japanese expansion but the American people did not want to go to war to stop them.

And really, did Japan lose the war? The now dominate industries the US used to and have replaced American workers building what they used to manufacture - so the American people who didn't want to go to war with Japan did, and now the Japanese manufacture what Americans used to. the Americans are in debt to the Japanese to the tune of what - close to a trillion dollars? The borrower is servant to the lender.
_________________________________________

Last edited by Zenas on Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:12 am; edited 4 times in total

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:59 am Post subject:

Quote:

I am afraid there is nothing that can really be done except make full steam investment into alternative energy. And even that is not really being done.

Our gov't isn't really helping matters in that department either

Zenas

Joined: 17 May 2008

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:26 am Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

If speculators, insiders, manipulators and capitalists in general are causing the problem and it's foolish to look to the government, just what is the solution?

What most people don't realize is that the Federal Reserve, in issuing fiat currency, is violating the commandment "Thou shalt not steal." Fiat currency steals from everyone who holds/uses fiat currency because the value of fiat currency is continually decreasing.

Everyone who uses fiat currency is violating the commandment "Thou shalt not steal."

We've replaced the Ten Commandments with the 10 Planks of Communism.
_______________________________________

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject:

Zenas wrote:

Quote:

Actually, I lean libertarian.

You only think you lean libertarian. Anyone who suggests government can solve problems is communistic. Governments, especially federal or national governments cause the very problems that they then offer to solve, taking of course, money from each of it's citizens, to implement the solution which then doesn't solve the problem and instead usually makes the problem worst.
______________________________________________

Quote:

Communism is the authoritarian rule of a single party based on populist propaganda and promises involving state control and management of the economy.

Naw, the 10 Planks of Communism describe communism.

Nice try.
____________________________________________

Okay, we'll define it your way, since you're incapable of handling any ideas dissonant to your worldview. Here we go, meegook:

Quote:

1. Abolition of private property and the application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralization of the means of communications and transportation in the hands of the State.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state, the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries, gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of population over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.

Let's see, I agree with parts of #2 (graduated income tax) and #10 (free education for all children in public schools). The others I'm against. Am I a communist?

Congratulations, somehow you've made this discussion about me rather than about your ideas.

Zenas

Joined: 17 May 2008

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject:

Have you ever paid property tax? If yes, then you agree with #1. If you don't pay property tax, your property can be taken from you and sold for the taxes, hence you don't 'own' the property, you rent it from the State and the tax is the rent payment.

Did you enter an agreement with the Federal government, a legal entity, to pay social security taxes? Were you covered by worker's compensation insurance? If so, you participated in # 8.

If you buy and sell using fiat currency and not gold and silver, then you are using a communistic method of payment, in violation of the US Constitution. [if you're American].

So far, we got you at 5/5s a communist. I can show you how the rest apply to you in one form or another as well.

I'm not criticizing you mind you. I was one myself w/o knowing it. Still am in some respects, but at least now I know.
_______________________________

Quote:

Congratulations, somehow you've made this discussion about me rather than about your ideas.

I think you did that.
______________________

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject:

Zenas wrote:

Have you ever paid property tax? If yes, then you agree with #1. If you don't pay property tax, your property can be taken from you and sold for the taxes, hence you don't 'own' the property, you rent it from the State and the tax is the rent payment.

Did you enter an agreement with the Federal government, a legal entity, to pay social security taxes? Were you covered by worker's compensation insurance? If so, you participated in # 8.

So far, we got you at 4/5s a communist. I can show you how the rest apply to you in one form or another as well.

I'm not criticizing you mind you. I was one myself w/o knowing it.
_______________________________

You're taking the word 'Communism' and turning it into 'Tolerant of some sort of government apparatus.' Which I am. I'm grateful to the state for conferring and recognizing my property rights. Those property taxes go to schools, local police, and fire departments. These things are necessary to protect the integrity and value of my property. I do not think recognizing that makes me a Communist.

Sorry, worker's compensation does not get us to 'Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.'

I'm taking my definition from of libertarianism from here.

Quote:

I also think it would be helpful if more libertarians talked about things in these terms. Too many libertarians seem to define libertarianism as a very specific and restrictive political program: as a laundry list of government programs to be abolished, or equivalently as a very short list of government programs that won�t be abolished. By that measure, libertarianism is nowhere close to successful. But if we define libertarianism more broadly as a set of general ideas and attitudes�pro-market, pro-tolerance, skeptical of authority�the last few decades look a lot better from a libertarian perspective. Few major government programs have been abolished, but the role of market in the economy has expanded dramatically, and partly as a consequence people are freer than they�ve ever been to live their lives as they seem fit without interference from those in authority.

Zenas

Joined: 17 May 2008

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject:

May I suggest you take a breath and slow down?

Quote:

Sorry, worker's compensation does not get us to 'Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.'

#8 has two parts. You ignored the first part, the one that's just before the first period. Equal liability of all to labor.

8. Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

Quote:

I'm grateful to the state for conferring and recognizing my property rights. Those property taxes go to schools, local police, and fire departments. These things are necessary to protect the integrity and value of my property. I do not think recognizing that makes me a Communist.

What right do you have to property if the State can take it away if you don't pay taxes which is a euphemism for rents?

You have no property rights, and this is a form of theft. There are a myriad of ways to collect the monies needed for police and fire services, and there is no need for public schools. Private schools do a much better job at educating. Again, public education is a communist idea.

What about those people who must pay taxes for public schools and those schools then indoctrinate the students with ideas contrary to what they believe, like removing the 10 Commandments and replacing them with the 10 Planks? Or the homosexual 'lifestyle?'

And what about those without children paying taxes for the schools ?

Nothing libertarian about that. Communistic yes, libertarian no.
__________________________________

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject:

Zenas wrote:

Quote:

Actually, I'm surprised you're dwelling on property taxes. If you're an American, I'd think zoning would be much more controversial. I think you're right that property taxes show that America (and most other developed nations) is not a strictly libertarian society. Property taxes are how the states and local governments collect the money they need to operate a minimal collective social apparatus. Individuals cannot efficiently construct roads. Neither can individuals in a post-industrial society hope to have the skills and know-how to police themselves and prevent fire. Its inefficient.

Again, I don't see how any of the above opinion is Communist much less Socialist. If you're trying to show you're more of a libertarian than I, congratulations, because you've won hands down. As I've said, I lean libertarian. My rigid insistance on the importance of public education puts me at least a little in the socialist column.

Zenas

Joined: 17 May 2008

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Individuals cannot efficiently construct roads. Neither can individuals in a post-industrial society hope to have the skills and know-how to police themselves and prevent fire. Its inefficient.

As an 'individual' developer I used to construct roads at my expense all the time. All city roads are constructed by private contractors. Secondly, we're discussing the method of payments, not who constructs roads.

Fuel taxes fund State and Federal road construction and maintenance. That way you have a choice as to participate or not. those who don't use the roads with a vehicle don't pay a tax.

Quote:

Property taxes are how the states and local governments collect the money they need to operate a minimal collective social apparatus.

The point is there are other ways to fund those necessary services supplied by government that don't violate our rights. Never said anything about being opposed to police or fire protection. Only about methods of paying for those services.

You might do well to learn how to comprehend what is written. I would think it would prevent many misunderstandings. Governments and others pull the wool over our eyes and take our money because we don't understanding what words mean. Words in legal documents are put there for a specific reason and other words left out for other reasons.

Words make a difference. Often times a big difference.
___________________________________

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject:

Zenas wrote:

You might do well to learn how to comprehend what is written. I would think it would prevent many misunderstandings. Governments and others pull the wool over our eyes and take our money because we don't understanding what words mean. Words in legal documents are put there for a specific reason and other words left out for other reasons.

Words make a difference. Often times a big difference.

Yes, words make a difference. That was my point exactly. But I take it you concede the point: you were using Communism in an inappropriately broad and expansive manner.

And I think governments pull the 'wool over our eyes' because 90% of people are comfortable paying property taxes and living in zoned communities because it helps their property values.

Zenas

Joined: 17 May 2008

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject:

Quote:

But I take it you concede the point: you were using Communism in an inappropriately broad and expansive manner.

No, I don't. But time restriction prevents more of a reply.

Quote:

And I think governments pull the 'wool over our eyes' because 90% of people are comfortable paying property taxes and living in zoned communities because it helps their property values.

Yup, my point exactly, 90% of the people are communistic in practice and don't even know it and that is exactly what the government is counting on.

And we weren't discussing zoned communities, were we?
__________________________________________

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject:

Zenas wrote:

Yup, my point exactly, 90% of the people are communistic in practice and don't even know it and that is exactly what the government is counting on.

Yes, because the gov't is a single entity that has only one train of thought. There aren't different interest groups in the gov't whatsoever. Or perhaps you think there are, but they all agree on that one thing? Keeping their power over "the people"?

Dude, there would be no government if there wasn't any of that "communistic in practice." Those people are what created the gov't. Sure, we have our founding fathers, but I doubt they'd recognize our present government. Our society has changed over the past 200+ years, and that society has changed our gov't. perhaps you view it the other way around.

But anyway, let's say, for argument's sake that your ideas and concepts are better than what any country has out there right now. Welllll, here's your problem: some of your ideas and concepts clash with human nature. You're like Marx in that regard: noble in principle but in reality unachievable.

Zenas

Joined: 17 May 2008

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject:

Quote:

some of your ideas and concepts clash with human nature.

America was set up - founded if you will - knowing full well that the ideas within the Constitution went against human nature and that is exactly what the Constitution is meant to bind - human nature, man's nature. "Bind them with the chains of the Constitution."

Every time someone suggests that government do this or government do that, they are asking for corrupt human nature to do something good. Impossible.

For almost 150 some odd years America worked. And during that time the Ten Commandments, upon which much of the Constitution was based, was the foundation of the greatness of America. The decline which started in the 1960s commenced with the removal of the Bible and Biblical principles from public places - including the public schools.

Been down hill ever since.

Ron Paul tried to bring us back that way, but people are choosing communism. With communism comes a price to be paid and pay that price Americans will.

______________________________________

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:34 am Post subject:

Zenas wrote:

Quote:

some of your ideas and concepts clash with human nature.

Ah, interpretation. That's the fun of history!

So segregation was a good thing?
Big believer in the traditional family? Fair enough, nothing wrong with that I suppose. My mom would think you would be a bit crazy and chauvinistic, as would many other women.

And heck, if you're going to accuse the US of going down the dumps, why not stick with the "traditional" libertarian view and say things were going to crap from FDR onwards? If his policies weren't "communist" then I don't think you could argue that any other president's policies were socialist in nature.

Tis better to look towards the future than look nostalgically back at the past if you ask me. Your perception of that past is distorted, and there is no way you can bring back those days for a # of reasons (including the fact that past never really existed in reality). And I mean you in the general sense here.

Display posts from previous:

	Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next
Page 4 of 5

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe