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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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 Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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The US ought to run up two or three trillion dollars of additional debt and invest it in alternative energy.
better to be at the mercy of debt than at the mercy of the middle east.
It is worth whatever the price. |
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Zutronius
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Location: Suncheon
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
Hmm. I was reading along and then I hit this part:
In Canada, more low-income Canadians have access to public transportation, therefore the adjustment will not come from them. The adjustment will come from middle class families that will start giving up the second or third cars,� he said, adding that much of the higher tax Canadians pay tends to be invested in urban transit systems.
 What a load of Bull shyte!
Where in Canada is this guy talking about? Certainly not where I come from. Public transportation is almost non-existant in rural areas and these are the areas that will be hit the hardest. Doesn't matter if you are rich or poor in rural Canada, because more than likely there is no bus service.
I can't speak for other regions though, but poor old Saskatcheeewaan doesn't have much in the way of public transportation, and the tax levels are some of the highest in Canada! |
What percentage of Canada's low income earners live in Saskatchewan? |
I'm a low income earner from rural Ontario. This is going to affect rural communities very hard. All the small towns surrounding me have no form of public transit established. At least the Mennonites won't be affected. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| The US actually ought to raise the gas tax. |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| The US actually ought to raise the gas tax. |
Yes and a 100% tax on any family car with an engine capacity greater than 3 liters.
Last edited by blade on Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| blade wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| The US actually ought to raise the gas tax. |
Yes and a 100% tax on any family car with any with an engine capacity greater than 3 liters. |
and the US ought to tax imported oil as well.
Only when those two taxes are in effect ought the US tax the oil companies.
Alternative energy will get the US out of trouble , not only strategically but also economicially since there is a world wide market for alternative energy and pollution control technology.
It would give the US economy the same boost as the internet did.
Americans sacrificed much more during WW II why can't Americans handle high gas prices now? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
The US ought to run up two or three trillion dollars of additional debt and invest it in alternative energy.
better to be at the mercy of debt than at the mercy of the middle east.
It is worth whatever the price. |
Now, why on Earth has the government been avoiding investing in alternative fuels?! I was thinking since I was a teenager that it was insane not to invest in solar, thermal, and wind power. Yes, the government does invet a bit in alternative fuels. I would like to see the government raise taxes to pay off some of the deficit and to invest in alternative fuels and mass transit even if it means removing some homes. This is a serious situation. People can't afford to pay 6 bucks a gallon for gas.
Instead of a war in Iraq, that money could have been spent on depending less on Middle Eastern oil. Both the democrats and republicans among the politicians are at fault. They have failed the people. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
The US ought to run up two or three trillion dollars of additional debt and invest it in alternative energy.
better to be at the mercy of debt than at the mercy of the middle east.
It is worth whatever the price. |
Now, why on Earth has the government been avoiding investing in alternative fuels?! I was thinking since I was a teenager that it was insane not to invest in solar, thermal, and wind power. Yes, the government does invet a bit in alternative fuels. I would like to see the government raise taxes to pay off some of the deficit and to invest in alternative fuels and mass transit even if it means removing some homes. This is a serious situation. People can't afford to pay 6 bucks a gallon for gas.
Instead of a war in Iraq, that money could have been spent on depending less on Middle Eastern oil. Both the democrats and republicans among the politicians are at fault. They have failed the people. |
You are probably correct though it ought not be a choice of one or the other.
Besides if the US isn't going in invest in alternative energy and the US did not choose to go that way after 9-11. then it better be willing to force mid east governments and elites to quit their war against the US.
Raise gas taxes first.
but truth be told the US is a nation of fat cats who won't change their life style to win. |
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Hyeon Een
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:19 am Post subject: |
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For a European the price of gas in the US has always been.. amusing to me.
I first started driving in the mid/late 90s when it was about the equivalent of $4 a gallon. At the time I had a minimum wage job in the UK. The fact that now, a decade later, citizens of the US are complaining about gas prices I experienced in my late teenage years whilst earning minimum wage and paying a lot more tax are hilarious.
Of course a lot more Americans live a lot further from work or school than I ever did, however, is that their fault or mine? I think Americans are now beginning to deal with facts my parents dealt with when they were coming of age. The difference is, is that when my parents were coming of age they weren't coming from a distance (The suburbs), they were already coming from the city or the inner suburbs. My parents *knew* they couldn't afford to live an hour's drive/train ride away from where they worked. It was expensive. Now Americans are having to deal with the same thing.
The other week I was listening to AFN and I heard a middle aged lady exclaim "How we sposed to get to work! How we sposed to pick our kids up from school! How we sposed to shop!". It amused me. I wanted to say "Sell your car, buy some legs, get a bus pass." If that doesn't solve your problems move to the city.
Of course my answer is pretty crap in a lot of the US since public transport has been so degraded since.. well.. the 1920s? 1930s? A long time anyway. I kind of feel sorry for the lady on that score. But until enough people like her move back into neighbourhoods servicable by public transport there's going to be a big problem. Giving tax breaks and tax subsidies are great for like a year.. after two years it begins to hurt the local government. After 40 years the federal government is going to be going bankrupt.
Current US gas prices are totally reasonable and nothing for anyone to get excited about. If people don't like it then NOW is the time to think about moving house to somewhere with decent public transport. This includes moving cross-country. If they leave it too late then they're going to be screwed.. then they'll start rioting.
The US should really, really, really, start investing massively in alternative terms of energy. I don't say this in a hippy kind of way, but in a pragmatic kind of way. I'd like to see the US as the most powerful and dynamic force on the planet. The only way I can see this happening is if they dominate future-energy. At the current rate they aren't going to do that, and that will suck for Americans and the rest of the world. Nuclear is a great stop-gap measure but the resources won't last forever unless viable fusion plants can be created.
In terms of Korea:
If only they had an energy source!!
Most people live very close to their work or study place in mass housing. If there was a low-cost source of energy to power these tower blocks and the short distances they commute this country would be in awesome shape.
Unfortunately this country relies entirely on oil imports, got rid of its' tram/trolley-bus system and has a container-load of cars on every street. If, however, there is any country ready to cut down its' energy usage by 80% or so it's this one. I hope it does, and I hope Samsung or LG help them do it. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Hyeon Een wrote: |
For a European the price of gas in the US has always been.. amusing to me.
I first started driving in the mid/late 90s when it was about the equivalent of $4 a gallon. At the time I had a minimum wage job in the UK. The fact that now, a decade later, citizens of the US are complaining about gas prices I experienced in my late teenage years whilst earning minimum wage and paying a lot more tax are hilarious.
Of course a lot more Americans live a lot further from work or school than I ever did, however, is that their fault or mine? I think Americans are now beginning to deal with facts my parents dealt with when they were coming of age. The difference is, is that when my parents were coming of age they weren't coming from a distance (The suburbs), they were already coming from the city or the inner suburbs. My parents *knew* they couldn't afford to live an hour's drive/train ride away from where they worked. It was expensive. Now Americans are having to deal with the same thing.
The other week I was listening to AFN and I heard a middle aged lady exclaim "How we sposed to get to work! How we sposed to pick our kids up from school! How we sposed to shop!". It amused me. I wanted to say "Sell your car, buy some legs, get a bus pass." If that doesn't solve your problems move to the city.
Of course my answer is pretty crap in a lot of the US since public transport has been so degraded since.. well.. the 1920s? 1930s? A long time anyway. I kind of feel sorry for the lady on that score. But until enough people like her move back into neighbourhoods servicable by public transport there's going to be a big problem. Giving tax breaks and tax subsidies are great for like a year.. after two years it begins to hurt the local government. After 40 years the federal government is going to be going bankrupt.
Current US gas prices are totally reasonable and nothing for anyone to get excited about. If people don't like it then NOW is the time to think about moving house to somewhere with decent public transport. This includes moving cross-country. If they leave it too late then they're going to be screwed.. then they'll start rioting.
The US should really, really, really, start investing massively in alternative terms of energy. I don't say this in a hippy kind of way, but in a pragmatic kind of way. I'd like to see the US as the most powerful and dynamic force on the planet. The only way I can see this happening is if they dominate future-energy. At the current rate they aren't going to do that, and that will suck for Americans and the rest of the world. Nuclear is a great stop-gap measure but the resources won't last forever unless viable fusion plants can be created. |
I have to admit, for some reason I don't like it when Europeans talk about the US. Everything is presented as so pat and clear-cut, even if I agree with about 90% of the logic.
Yes, OF COURSE America's gas prices are not yet that bad.
Yes, OF COURSE America should not have built its infrastructure to be so automobile intensive.
Yes, OF COURSE America should invest full-bore in alternative energy (although right now America's private sector is the world leader in funding such projects).
But this idea that Americans can just move to neighborhoods close to public transit or near where they work is just facile. It will take a re-engineering of society, which is why Mises has proposed in another thread government intervention into the market.
Last edited by Kuros on Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Hyeon Een wrote: |
For a European the price of gas in the US has always been.. amusing to me.
I first started driving in the mid/late 90s when it was about the equivalent of $4 a gallon. At the time I had a minimum wage job in the UK. The fact that now, a decade later, citizens of the US are complaining about gas prices I experienced in my late teenage years whilst earning minimum wage and paying a lot more tax are hilarious.
Of course a lot more Americans live a lot further from work or school than I ever did, however, is that their fault or mine? I think Americans are now beginning to deal with facts my parents dealt with when they were coming of age. The difference is, is that when my parents were coming of age they weren't coming from a distance (The suburbs), they were already coming from the city or the inner suburbs. My parents *knew* they couldn't afford to live an hour's drive/train ride away from where they worked. It was expensive. Now Americans are having to deal with the same thing.
The other week I was listening to AFN and I heard a middle aged lady exclaim "How we sposed to get to work! How we sposed to pick our kids up from school! How we sposed to shop!". It amused me. I wanted to say "Sell your car, buy some legs, get a bus pass." If that doesn't solve your problems move to the city.
Of course my answer is pretty crap in a lot of the US since public transport has been so degraded since.. well.. the 1920s? 1930s? A long time anyway. I kind of feel sorry for the lady on that score. But until enough people like her move back into neighbourhoods servicable by public transport there's going to be a big problem. Giving tax breaks and tax subsidies are great for like a year.. after two years it begins to hurt the local government. After 40 years the federal government is going to be going bankrupt.
Current US gas prices are totally reasonable and nothing for anyone to get excited about. If people don't like it then NOW is the time to think about moving house to somewhere with decent public transport. This includes moving cross-country. If they leave it too late then they're going to be screwed.. then they'll start rioting.
The US should really, really, really, start investing massively in alternative terms of energy. I don't say this in a hippy kind of way, but in a pragmatic kind of way. I'd like to see the US as the most powerful and dynamic force on the planet. The only way I can see this happening is if they dominate future-energy. At the current rate they aren't going to do that, and that will suck for Americans and the rest of the world. Nuclear is a great stop-gap measure but the resources won't last forever unless viable fusion plants can be created.
In terms of Korea:
If only they had an energy source!!
Most people live very close to their work or study place in mass housing. If there was a low-cost source of energy to power these tower blocks and the short distances they commute this country would be in awesome shape.
Unfortunately this country relies entirely on oil imports, got rid of its' tram/trolley-bus system and has a container-load of cars on every street. If, however, there is any country ready to cut down its' energy usage by 80% or so it's this one. I hope it does, and I hope Samsung or LG help them do it. |
Good points (and I'm American).
Better late than never to begin the admittedly massive process to correct the problems caused by allowing General Motors to wreck America's mass transit systems since early last century. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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And now for an example of stupid journalism, or a stupid journalist. This guy just doesn't get it:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080629/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_giant_oil_field
Bringing another proven reserve on-line is only a short-term solution to a big, long-term problem. But it's comforting to those who just don't want to face facts. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
And now for an example of stupid journalism, or a stupid journalist. This guy just doesn't get it:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080629/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_giant_oil_field
Bringing another proven reserve on-line is only a short-term solution to a big, long-term problem. But it's comforting to those who just don't want to face facts. |
That is what I was thinking when I read the article. In fact it is not even short term solution. The problem is still there and this means the US will feel less pressure to do deal with the problem.
You know I really thought the US was going to do something about alternative energy and now I am worried that it is going to be all talk. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
Now, why on Earth has the government been avoiding investing in alternative fuels?! I was thinking since I was a teenager that it was insane not to invest in solar, thermal, and wind power. Yes, the government does invet a bit in alternative fuels. I would like to see the government raise taxes to pay off some of the deficit and to invest in alternative fuels and mass transit even if it means removing some homes. This is a serious situation. People can't afford to pay 6 bucks a gallon for gas.
Instead of a war in Iraq, that money could have been spent on depending less on Middle Eastern oil. Both the democrats and republicans among the politicians are at fault. They have failed the people. |
For the same reason in Canada as in the US. Oil producers have a lot of money. So they "invest" in politicians and lobbying organizations that promote laws and regulations that encourage oil consumption by the average consumer. Politicians follow the money, and discourage regulations or programs that encourage petroleum conservation - carbon taxes, for example. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
And now for an example of stupid journalism, or a stupid journalist. This guy just doesn't get it:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080629/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_giant_oil_field
Bringing another proven reserve on-line is only a short-term solution to a big, long-term problem. But it's comforting to those who just don't want to face facts. |
That is what I was thinking when I read the article. In fact it is not even short term solution. The problem is still there and this means the US will feel less pressure to do deal with the problem.
You know I really thought the US was going to do something about alternative energy and now I am worried that it is going to be all talk. |
The message here, Joo, is that the average journalist is an idiot.  |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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