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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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 Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
Like westerners, Korean clothing was influenced by outside forces. Westerners were merely influenced first since the influence of industrialization on clothing manufacture and thus fashion occurred there first and so the impression is that modern clothing is only western when in fact it is a result of various influences just like everything else. |
Do you have any links to back this up? I am not discounting the possibility completely but I don't really detect any Asian influence in British dress even in the 1500's when East Asia was probably more advanced for example. |
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nateium
Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| Scotticus wrote: |
| nateium wrote: |
Good lord. Please try to provide some examples/evidence for that one. |
Well, for one, I know that Alexander the Great brought pants to Europe after his little jaunt into the Middle East. Not sure exactly what part of the region he specifically got them from, but I know slacks came with him. |
Sure. And silk comes from China etc. It hasn't been all from West to East, but the most common everyday basic styles people in North East asia wear (from the business suit to T-shirts and jeans) comes from the west. |
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bangbayed
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:22 am Post subject: |
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To make a long story short, Modernisation, Industrialisation and Capitalism.
A farmer has a uniform, which of course differs depending on the country.
A factory worker has a uniform, which doesn't differ as much depending on the country.
An office worker, which most professional people strive to be, not only in Korea, but in the whole world, has a certain uniform. Who introduced the modern day office? Western capitalist countries. What did they wear? Suppressive suits and ties. Good way to control a workforce.
Sure we can find certain royal elites from previous centuries wearing western clothes, but these cases were more for an occasion rather than daily wear - and usually for diplomatic reasons. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
Like westerners, Korean clothing was influenced by outside forces. Westerners were merely influenced first since the influence of industrialization on clothing manufacture and thus fashion occurred there first and so the impression is that modern clothing is only western when in fact it is a result of various influences just like everything else. |
Do you have any links to back this up? I am not discounting the possibility completely but I don't really detect any Asian influence in British dress even in the 1500's when East Asia was probably more advanced for example. |
Of course from Roman times to the Middle Ages, Asians dominated the textile export industry, through the "Silk Road".
It's said that the Romans paid so much for silk and their bright colors that their economy was destabilized by their trade deficit with asia.
The invention of gunpowder also led to the extinction of European Knights and feudal European castles since bullets and cannon balls could penetrate their steel armor and walls. So that's a whole class of people whose traditional clothing was made extinct by something that was invented outside of europe.
During the middle ages, Asian technology like the spinning wheel, the endless belt drive, and the fly wheel were "crucial in the development of the industrial revolution" in Britain. (see "Lost Discoveries", Teresi). Europeans developed their machines based on these technologies and because they did not have the cheap manpower that was in India and China. (also the reason why industrialization didn't start in Asia since manpower was cheaper)
Of course mechanized production of textiles won't give you the same high quality and you can't produce at a profit difficult to make traditional clothing. Hence you get the simpler designs of modern fashion which were more profitable to make. So Asian ideas and inventiveness led to the industrial revolution in the West that eventually affected the clothes that people wear in the modern era. Btw, eastern Europeans continued to wear traditional clothes much longer than western Europeans who experienced industrialization sooner.
Take a look at this site that details some of the more direct influences on fashion aside from what I've already mentioned.
http://udel.edu/~orzada/Far-East.htm
Clearly, the influences from outside Europe have been huge, from Indian cotton, to the spinning wheel, gunpowder that led to the downfall of feudalism itself and their modes of dress, and the competition from Asia that lead to the industrial revolution and then modern clothing that transformed not only the way Asians dress but also all Westerners. |
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Grab the Chickens Levi
Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Location: Ilsan
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
Like westerners, Korean clothing was influenced by outside forces. Westerners were merely influenced first since the influence of industrialization on clothing manufacture and thus fashion occurred there first and so the impression is that modern clothing is only western when in fact it is a result of various influences just like everything else. |
Do you have any links to back this up? I am not discounting the possibility completely but I don't really detect any Asian influence in British dress even in the 1500's when East Asia was probably more advanced for example. |
Of course from Roman times to the Middle Ages, Asians dominated the textile export industry, through the "Silk Road".
It's said that the Romans paid so much for silk and their bright colors that their economy was destabilized by their trade deficit with asia.
The invention of gunpowder also led to the extinction of European Knights and feudal European castles since bullets and cannon balls could penetrate their steel armor and walls. So that's a whole class of people whose traditional clothing was made extinct by something that was invented outside of europe.
During the middle ages, Asian technology like the spinning wheel, the endless belt drive, and the fly wheel were "crucial in the development of the industrial revolution" in Britain. (see "Lost Discoveries", Teresi). Europeans developed their machines based on these technologies and because they did not have the cheap manpower that was in India and China. (also the reason why industrialization didn't start in Asia since manpower was cheaper)
Of course mechanized production of textiles won't give you the same high quality and you can't produce at a profit difficult to make traditional clothing. Hence you get the simpler designs of modern fashion which were more profitable to make. So Asian ideas and inventiveness led to the industrial revolution in the West that eventually affected the clothes that people wear in the modern era. Btw, eastern Europeans continued to wear traditional clothes much longer than western Europeans who experienced industrialization sooner.
Take a look at this site that details some of the more direct influences on fashion aside from what I've already mentioned.
http://udel.edu/~orzada/Far-East.htm
Clearly, the influences from outside Europe have been huge, from Indian cotton, to the spinning wheel, gunpowder that led to the downfall of feudalism itself and their modes of dress, and the competition from Asia that lead to the industrial revolution and then modern clothing that transformed not only the way Asians dress but also all Westerners. |
Gadzooks! It's as though I can actually smell the desperation through the computer monitor.....
Of course the smarter indivivual will notice how he tries to twist 'Asians have adopted Western style clothing' into 'The west HAS been influenced by Asia, not just the other way round...' completely skirting the real question (which was merely an objective inquiry with no inference of inferiority or superiority) and making it a platform for his inferiority complex lol.
The cloying, humid smell of desperation. YUCK. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Grab the Chickens Levi wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
Like westerners, Korean clothing was influenced by outside forces. Westerners were merely influenced first since the influence of industrialization on clothing manufacture and thus fashion occurred there first and so the impression is that modern clothing is only western when in fact it is a result of various influences just like everything else. |
Do you have any links to back this up? I am not discounting the possibility completely but I don't really detect any Asian influence in British dress even in the 1500's when East Asia was probably more advanced for example. |
Of course from Roman times to the Middle Ages, Asians dominated the textile export industry, through the "Silk Road".
It's said that the Romans paid so much for silk and their bright colors that their economy was destabilized by their trade deficit with asia.
The invention of gunpowder also led to the extinction of European Knights and feudal European castles since bullets and cannon balls could penetrate their steel armor and walls. So that's a whole class of people whose traditional clothing was made extinct by something that was invented outside of europe.
During the middle ages, Asian technology like the spinning wheel, the endless belt drive, and the fly wheel were "crucial in the development of the industrial revolution" in Britain. (see "Lost Discoveries", Teresi). Europeans developed their machines based on these technologies and because they did not have the cheap manpower that was in India and China. (also the reason why industrialization didn't start in Asia since manpower was cheaper)
Of course mechanized production of textiles won't give you the same high quality and you can't produce at a profit difficult to make traditional clothing. Hence you get the simpler designs of modern fashion which were more profitable to make. So Asian ideas and inventiveness led to the industrial revolution in the West that eventually affected the clothes that people wear in the modern era. Btw, eastern Europeans continued to wear traditional clothes much longer than western Europeans who experienced industrialization sooner.
Take a look at this site that details some of the more direct influences on fashion aside from what I've already mentioned.
http://udel.edu/~orzada/Far-East.htm
Clearly, the influences from outside Europe have been huge, from Indian cotton, to the spinning wheel, gunpowder that led to the downfall of feudalism itself and their modes of dress, and the competition from Asia that lead to the industrial revolution and then modern clothing that transformed not only the way Asians dress but also all Westerners. |
Gadzooks! It's as though I can actually smell the desperation through the computer monitor.....
Of course the smarter indivivual will notice how he tries to twist 'Asians have adopted Western style clothing' into 'The west HAS been influenced by Asia, not just the other way round...' completely skirting the real question (which was merely an objective inquiry with no inference of inferiority or superiority) and making it a platform for his inferiority complex lol.
The cloying, humid smell of desperation. YUCK. |
I made a stab at trying to define modern clothing. That's relevant to the topic at hand. As others have pointed out trade, and industrialization were significant factors. You seem to be upset that you didn't get the answer you wanted.
Come on Levi, what exactly did you want? Obviously colonization and contact with the West and Japan led Koreans to change their garb. Did you want exact dates when the first Korean put on a western hat? Did you really need folks here to figure this out for you?  |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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^ The spinning wheel was introduced to Europe from India between the 13th and 14th centuries, so yes it was 'crucial' to the industrial revolution in the 18th century, but it hardly means 'Asian ideas led to the industrial revolution in the West' does it.
I guess when Indians first saw a train they immediately said "Hey! Look what those European plagiarists have done with our spinning wheel."
Honestly. Some people. You find out that there have been influences from East to West and not just vice versa and you completely lose your head about it.
Last edited by Privateer on Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Grab the Chickens Levi
Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Location: Ilsan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
^ The spinning wheel was introduced to Europe from India between the 13th and 14th centuries, so yes it was 'crucial' to the industrial revolution in the 18th century, but it hardly means 'Asian ideas led to the industrial revolution in the West' does it.
I guess when Indians first saw a train they immediately said "Hey! Look what those European plagiarists have done with our spinning wheel." |
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sojourner1
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Location: Where meggi swim and 2 wheeled tractors go sput put chug alugg pug pug
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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I stumbled on this by accident and remember this thread from a few weeks ago which is quite interesting. It basically says the Japanese influenced Korea to wear suits in the late 1800's, but the number of men on the streets of Seoul wearing western clothing didn't outnumber those wearing hanbok until after the Korean war.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/special/special_view.asp?newsIdx=27347&categoryCode=177 |
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Geckoman
Joined: 07 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:52 pm Post subject: Re: When, Why and How did Koreans start wearing western clot |
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| Grab the Chickens Levi wrote: |
The question came to me earlier when a coworker was talking about wearing a hanbok for some reason.
When did this happen..?
More importantly what was the driving reason behind it...?
I mean was it fashion?
Are western clothes more practical?
Cheaper to make and buy?
Easier to wash...?
I really wonder when it was the masses of Korean society first started wholescale crossing over to western dress and how it was promoted or whatever? Was it a govt scheme...? Is it something to do with traditional Korean garb not being cut out for working in new industries...?
Anyone have an idea...? |
There was recently a great article in The Korea Times (www.koreatimes.co.kr) about this very subject by Andrei Lankov in his column. Lankov is a history professor and he has a column in The Korea Times in which he writes about Korean history. I always enjoy reading his columns as I love history.
Here is the link to his article about the transistion of Korean society from wearing Korean clothing to Western clothing:
"Suitable Attire" by Andrei Lankov
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2008/07/137_27347.html
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