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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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 Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Why would an Englishman or a Scot or the Irish want to be told how to think, what to say and how to act by some technobureaucrat in Brussels. |
Why would someone from Manchester want to be told how to think, what to say and how to act by some technobureaucrat in London? I'm still wrestling with why my state has to listen to those fools in Washington, why my county has to listen to the fools in the state capital, why my town has to listen to those idiots in the county seat, why the people on my block have to listen to those town councilmen and why oh why did I have to listen to my dad. |
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[email protected]
Joined: 25 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| Why would an Englishman or a Scot or the Irish want to be told how to think, what to say and how to act by some technobureaucrat in Brussels. |
Why would someone from Manchester want to be told how to think, what to say and how to act by some technobureaucrat in London? I'm still wrestling with why my state has to listen to those fools in Washington, why my county has to listen to the fools in the state capital, why my town has to listen to those idiots in the county seat, why the people on my block have to listen to those town councilmen and why oh why did I have to listen to my dad. |
Thing is, at least you have a grasp on the mechanisms of your democracy, as I have with Irish politics. You have a fairly good idea how the system works, the same cant be said of the Majority of European citizens with the Eu. The whole thing is a Behemoth, and no one has really asked for it. For the past 13 years or something crazy, the expense accounts for Members of the European parliment havn't been signed off on. It's a massive shocking gravy train. Not to mention the absolute disgrace of the Common Agricultural policy, food mountains and subsidies for unsustainible French/British/Irish farms.
If Lisbon gets ratified (as it will get railroaded through, despite what any European citizen thinks) its the end of anyone being able to say stop. The Juggernaut will just pick up the pace |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:20 am Post subject: |
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China and Russia might have disagreed with you on that, too
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We could also mention the US, Canada, Australia these days, South Africa...but we probably shouldn't muddy the waters. Some people don't deal well with complexity. |
I find it strange that people are listing two communist dictatorships as evidence that the EU superstate can be done. Besides both Russia and China were dominated by one ethnic group, who were able to impose themselves on their respective minorities, creating some sense of unity. China itself is 90% Han Chinese.
The examples of the US, Canada and Australia are equally silly. All were once British colonies and inherited Britain's language, culture and many of her traditions, and were able to build on these to create their own distinct identities as nations. This is not the same as attempting to create a superstate out of seperate independent nations, which share very little sense of commonality. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| I find it strange that people are listing two communist dictatorships as evidence that the EU superstate can be done. |
I don't find it strange that you find that strange. You have a very short-term view of the world. How long was Russia around before/after it was a communist dictatorship? If you are any good at higher math, you might want to compute the same for China.
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| This is not the same as attempting to create a superstate out of seperate independent nations, which share very little sense of commonality. |
Ah me, I remember we crossed swords on this particular point the first time I recall responding to you. You really should be embarrassed at the level of your own ignorance but I'm impressed that you aren't. The confidence of ignorance is sometimes awe-inspiring. [/quote] |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| I don't find it strange that you find that strange. You have a very short-term view of the world. How long was Russia around before/after it was a communist dictatorship? If you are any good at higher math, you might want to compute the same for China. |
Before Russia was a communist dictatorship, it was an Imperial dictatorship in which the will of the Russians was imposed on the nations around them. Ditto for China. Is this your model for the creation of a single European state?
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| Ah me, I remember we crossed swords on this particular point the first time I recall responding to you. You really should be embarrassed at the level of your own ignorance but I'm impressed that you aren't. The confidence of ignorance is sometimes awe-inspiring. |
What ignorance are you referring to? When you used the example of Imperial Rome to demonstrate how it would be possible to unite Europe? Not really the best example of how to create a modern, democratic federal state. |
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Khenan
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| I'm still wrestling with why my state has to listen to those fools in Washington, why my county has to listen to the fools in the state capital, why my town has to listen to those idiots in the county seat, why the people on my block have to listen to those town councilmen and why oh why did I have to listen to my dad. |
I like you. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Russia and China were around before the rise of nation-state, the EU was not. You can't compare the Zhuang or the Kyrgyz to Germany and Poland. The nation-state ,and all that comes with it, is what's standing in the way of the EU. There is no precedent for it. |
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