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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| Zenas wrote: |
| If it was the fact that we were once a "Christian nation" and we are no more, as Obama believes, then we have lost our greatness, because it was the fact that we were a "Christian nation" that made us great. |
America was not a Christian nation at its inception, and was never intended to be such. The Framers of the Constitution were Deists, most of them, and they did not believe in the divinity of Christ, though they thought he was a wise and worthy fella whose words ought be listened to. They thought the same about some other religious thinkers as well.
Scan through the documents that built the American nation, and I'll be very surprised if you find the name of Christ or Jesus anywhere, though there are references to God and Divine Providence and Creator, things like that. That's Deism - it's basically clockwork Newtonianism, the notion that the world and the cosmos was built at some time in the past and then set to function as meant to without further tampering from outside. It also includes the idea that human free will and intelligently-directed intention is part of the plan, that we are agents in the mechanism set to work to take what is here and improve upon it with our hard work and compassionate energy.
People who call themselves conservative and wish the US to return to some prior state of Christianity are really looking to create something that never existed before - something that is actually antithetical to the values ingrained in our founding documents, as well in the guiding spirit that has prevailed and benefited our country so well.
We're still a great nation, and I think we qualify as among the greatest, but we've had a run of bad luck lately with some very low-grade leadership and a lot of people running around who really don't think the govt has any role to play in the creation or preservation of human happiness. That's too bad, of course, but things have every chance of getting better. Me, I'm looking forward to it. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson |
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Zenas
Joined: 17 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| America was not a Christian nation at its inception, and was never intended to be such. |
False. Many of the early settlers were Christian or in the least they had a faith in God, call them Deists or what have you, they believed in the Creator. They escaped persecution for their faith from European rulers.
Second, many of the preachers from these Christian churches were the ones pushing for secession from England.
Third, there are about 22 different Scriptural principles incorporated into the US Constitution - the supreme law of the land - and that which makes the United States unique among nations.
Fourth, many Biblical principles were practiced by citizens of the US for many years - the Bible was taught in the schools, Blue Laws made for obeying the sabbath, the Bible was used in the courtroom to argue cases, many prominent universities were founded to teach men to be Christian leaders, including Harvard, Yale and Princeton.
You, my friend, have been fed a line of bull and it looks like you not only ate it, you digested it and the contents has become a part of your make up.
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Funny, too, that even Obama, who was raised a Muslim, admits we were once a Christian nation but are no more.
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Thomas Jefferson was the author of the first plan of public education adopted for the city of Washington D.C., which included among other things, the Bible and Isaac Watts' Hymnal as the principle books that would be used to teach reading in the public schools of Washington D.C. *
The Constitution of Delaware said this [paraphrased]: While recognizing that nobody should be compelled to attend religious worship...it is the duty of all men frequently to assemble together for public worship of the "Author of the universe." *
In virtually every state, public office holders were required to affirm their belief in Biblical teachings. The Delaware Constitution prescribes this formal oath, "I do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, on God blessed forevermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures in the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration." *
Maryland required an oath in the belief of the Christian religion for every state officer. *
In 1777, the Continental Congress ordered 22,000 Bibles to be distributed in this country, "so that the people would be well-supplied with the political textbook of this nation."*
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty ... of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." (1816)
-- First chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, John Jay
"I believe no one can read the history of our country without realizing that the Good Book and the spirit of the Savior have from the beginning been our guiding geniuses ... Whether we look to the first Charter of Virginia ... or to the Charter of New England ... or to the Charter of Massachusetts Bay ... or to the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut ... the same objective is present ... a Christian land governed by Christian principles. I believe the entire Bill of Rights came into being because of the knowledge our forefathers had of the Bible and their belief in it: freedom of belief, of expression, of assembly, of petition, the dignity of the individual, the sanctity of the home, equal justice under law, and the reservation of powers to the people ... I like to believe we are living today in the spirit of the Christian religion. I like also to believe that as long as we do so, no great harm can come to our country."
[Liberal] Supreme Court chief justice, Earl Warren
http://reformed-theology.org/southern/america.htm
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"I like also to believe that as long as we do so, no great harm can come to our country."
We are no longer a Christian nation and great harm is coming to our country because of it.
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Zenas
Joined: 17 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| America was not a Christian nation at its inception, and was never intended to be such. bobster |
"America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of the Holy Scripture."
Woodrow Wilson
"They [the Founding Fathers] were intent upon establishing a Christian commonwealth in accordance with the principle of self-government. They were an inspired body of men. It has been said that God sifted the nations that He might send choice grain into the wilderness ... Who can fail to see it in the hand of Destiny? Who can doubt that it has been guided by a Divine Providence?"
Calvin Coolidge
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not on the power of government...[but] upon the capacity of each and every one of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
John Quincy Adams
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Zenas
Joined: 17 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| greedy_bones wrote: |
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| What makes this country great is its Constitution and the fact that the people respect it so. |
| Zenas wrote: |
What made the US great was it's dependence upon God and His principles. Not 100% mind you, never going to get that, but at least there was some humility before God or Providence or the Almighty or what ever name you give him, even Creator.
"the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them...."
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
"And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor."
Now, most people don't even know what the Constitution means, much less respect it. |
You realize that none of those quotes are from the constitution, don't you? Those are all from the declaration of independence which was written prior to the constitution. The constitution is pretty secular. "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." The one word with any theistic sentiment in there is blessings. I'd like to know how that or any other specific part of the constitution endorses a theocracy. |
I'm well aware of that. The Dec of Independence was written in the heat of the battle so to speak. It expresses what drove those men to risk their wealth, their honor and their lives in a war with what was at that time the most powerful nation on earth.
The Framers of the Constitution were also politicians. They knew they had to make the Constitution non-religious to be accepted. After all, the idea of a Federal government wasn't too popular at that time. In fact, it took ten years for the US C to be ratified.
However, as mentioned earlier and supported by the quotes above, there are many Biblical principles incorporated within the Constitution.
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson |
You and those who share your worldview take such platitudes -- whether you read them, then they resonate with you, and then they shape your worldview, or whether you actively seek them out in order to confirm your preexisting cynical worldview it makes little difference -- and then define your politics by adopting an anti, or opposite, position. This seems to represent your ideological compass.
Others, from Karl Marx, V.I. Lenin, George Orwell, Noam Chomsky, Oliver Stone, Michael Moore, Hugo Chavez, the list goes on, and in any combination, including and excluding such influences on a case-by-case basis, give you your language and suggest ready-made positions, which you embrace with open arms.
In any case, this is how you get to "anti-patriotism" as true and virtuous. The lot of you, including RS Refugee and his informant, William Blum.
But are you conscious of these processes? Or have you internalized the propaganda to such depths that you go about this as a true believer? I strongly suspect the latter. But who knows? |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| In any case, this is how you get to "anti-patriotism" as true and virtuous. |
Yep.
I never understood that. |
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Zenas
Joined: 17 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, the Northern industrialists and bankers called the Southerners anti-patriotic because they held to the Constitutional idea of States rights, including the right to secede when the federal government no longer existed to protect the States and the citizens of those states rights.
Lincoln even went so far as to imprison Northerners who didn't support the war effort against the South and had the Senator from Ohio deported to Canada for his outspoken criticism of the war.
Bush labels those of us who don't support his war for Israel and his bogus war against terrorism anti-patriotic and would like to imprison us along with those 'enemy combatants' in Gitmo and elsewhere and not torture us with waterboarding.
Beware those who label others un-patriotic.
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Zenas wrote: |
Beware those who label others un-patriotic.
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Yep. And beware of people who still care about a War Between the States almost a century and a half after it ended ...
Jefferson Davis was NOT a member of the Illuminati. Just wanted to mention that. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Zenas wrote: |
Yep, the Northern industrialists and bankers called the Southerners anti-patriotic because they held to the Constitutional idea of States rights, including the right to secede when the federal government no longer existed to protect the States and the citizens of those states rights.
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States Rights > Individual Rights. Right, Zenas? I mean, its more important that Virginia can do what it wants without interference from those Washington fatcats than it is that millions be freed from slavery. |
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Zenas
Joined: 17 May 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| Zenas wrote: |
Beware those who label others un-patriotic.
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Yep. And beware of people who still care about a War Between the States almost a century and a half after it ended ...
Jefferson Davis was NOT a member of the Illuminati. Just wanted to mention that. |
The only people who don't care about the US Civil war - the deadliest in American history, caused 620,000 soldier deaths and an undetermined number of civilian casualties - are those who don't understand the significance of that war, which is exactly what those who waged that war want you to be ignorant of. My guess is you know just about squat about the Civil War.
| Quote: |
| Jefferson Davis was NOT a member of the Illuminati. |
You got one thing right, but there were members of the north who were.
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| Quote: |
| States Rights > Individual Rights. Right, Zenas? I mean, its more important that Virginia can do what it wants without interference from those Washington fatcats than it is that millions be freed from slavery. |
Here's another ignorant one who thinks he knows something about the Civil War.
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No one is interested in the Civil War except, of course, the neocons and the Dictator in the White House, and that is why they refer back to Lincoln and his imprisoning and torturing Northern dissenters by the thousands as "rebels and subversives', including newspaper publishers and editors for their opposition to the war.
But hey, the two board pseudo-intellectuals think they have a lock on history, one of them thinks the Civil War is un-important today and the other thinks freeing the slaves had something to do with the war.
Both of you are good examples of those who got schooling but not an education. Don't despair, I was in the same condition you're in, so there is hope.
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| Zenas wrote: |
| Quote: |
| States Rights > Individual Rights. Right, Zenas? I mean, its more important that Virginia can do what it wants without interference from those Washington fatcats than it is that millions be freed from slavery. |
Here's another ignorant one who thinks he knows something about the Civil War.
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No one is interested in the Civil War except, of course, the neocons and the Dictator in the White House, and that is why they refer back to Lincoln and his imprisoning and torturing Northern dissenters by the thousands as "rebels and subversives', including newspaper publishers and editors for their opposition to the war.
But hey, the two board pseudo-intellectuals think they have a lock on history.
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That's right, you're so Libertarian that you oppose liberating the slaves. You're so Constitutionalist that you oppose the 14th Amendment.
But what do I know? |
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Zenas
Joined: 17 May 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:00 am Post subject: |
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So what do ya think there Mr. K, since you're so high minded about slavery and freeing the slaves, was the Civil War fought to free the slaves?
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| Zenas wrote: |
So what do ya think there Mr. K, since you're so high minded about slavery and freeing the slaves, was the Civil War fought to free the slaves?
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Absolutely. In fact, I would have argued that the Civil War is one of the things that made America great, but I didn't because:
a) the nature of the Civil War is a debate in itself
b) arguably, we've lost our way since 150 years ago
Now, you can go to the thread I've linked to and you'll see my arguments for why the war was about slavery. I stand with U.S. Grant in concluding that the Civil War averted a slew of wars of conquest by the South inspired by America's war with Mexico. At any rate, the Mexican War directly caused the American Civil War by allowing slavery to expand. It was not 30 years spent on the Senate floor arguing a compromise for States' Rights, it was all spent on States' various positions on slavery and the expansion of slavery.
And no, I don't buy that 1 million Americans fought and died for States' Rights. Why would poor people in the South fight for States' Rights? They fought for the eventual opportunity to fight again for their forty South American acres and several slaves. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson |
You and those who share your worldview take such platitudes -- whether you read them, then they resonate with you, and then they shape your worldview, or whether you actively seek them out in order to confirm your preexisting cynical worldview it makes little difference -- and then define your politics by adopting an anti, or opposite, position. This seems to represent your ideological compass.
Others, from Karl Marx, V.I. Lenin, George Orwell, Noam Chomsky, Oliver Stone, Michael Moore, Hugo Chavez, the list goes on, and in any combination, including and excluding such influences on a case-by-case basis, give you your language and suggest ready-made positions, which you embrace with open arms.
In any case, this is how you get to "anti-patriotism" as true and virtuous. The lot of you, including RS Refugee and his informant, William Blum.
But are you conscious of these processes? Or have you internalized the propaganda to such depths that you go about this as a true believer? I strongly suspect the latter. But who knows? |
Hey, Gopher, good to see you are back to your old, insulting self. I suppose I ought to be thankful that you have taken an extended breather since you last insulted me until now.
Were you bored again? We have already seen how you are capable of taking any side of any issue just to be able to spew your logorrhea.
Your arrogance and superiority complex are obviated by your comments. As if you know all about me and my "worldview" and how it is the same as the rest of "the lot of us." To show how wrong you are, I love my country VERY much which is why I am so appalled at the way I have seen its ideals and potential perverted, and why I try to wake up others to what I see as threats to what we hold dear. So that is what motivates me.
You have never answered the question I asked as to what motivates you. How can someone with such a command of history use it merely to shill for people in power?
Here's a few more quotes for you:
"Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." - Lord Acton
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." - Thomas Jefferson
"My country right or wrong" - Carl Schurz
I believe the first two; you and your ilk believe the third.
I'll take my "worldview" over that of you and your government apologist friends any day. |
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