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Obama for a "change"
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:33 am    Post subject: Obama for a "change" Reply with quote

"The more things change..."

Is Obama Following Bush On Iraq?

National Review Online: Democrat's Policy Seems To Be Strikingly Similar To The Status Quo

(National Review Online) This column was written by Mark Hemingway.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When Barack Obama announced he was going to �refine� his position on Iraq last week, not surprisingly many of his supporters were in a snit. It�s hard to blame them.

Obama campaigned on a promise to begin withdrawing troops from Iraq immediately, at the rate of a brigade or two a month, effectively removing the U.S. presence within 16 months of him assuming office. To bolster his antiwar credentials when jumping into the primary, in January of 2007 he introduced legislation in the Senate to have all of the troops out of Iraq by March of this year. And during the primary, he reminded anyone with a microphone that he was the only major candidate who had opposed the Iraq war from the beginning. If Obama were to refine his positions such that he were no longer explicitly in favor of ending the Iraq war promptly, it could represent a significant blow to his credibility among party activists and longtime supporters.

For his part, Obama seems to be feigning incredulity that anyone would be paying attention to how a presidential candidate �refines� his signature issue. �I was a little puzzled by the frenzy that I set off by what I thought was a pretty innocuous statement,� he told the Associated Press. �I am absolutely committed to ending the war.�

However, those paying close attention will note that Obama has significantly moderated his original antiwar and foreign-policy positions in recent months. Democrats and Obama supporters will be loathe to admit it, but Obama stands poised to adopt the three major elements of the Bush-administration foreign policy - staying the course in Iraq, endorsing the doctrine of preventative war and the strategic expansion of executive power to fight the war on terror.

While Obama hasn�t committed to any specifics regarding how he�ll change his Iraq position, evidence points to Obama doing almost a complete about-face on Iraq withdrawal. As George Packer observed in a recent issue of The New Yorker, recent success in Iraq has put Obama in a tricky spot - rapid withdrawal at a time the U.S. is succeeding would not be popular with mainstream voters, but going back on his promise to end the war would not be popular with the candidate�s base. �With the general election four months away, Obama�s rhetoric on the topic now seems outdated and out of touch, and the nominee-apparent may have a political problem concerning the very issue that did so much to bring him this far,� Packer wrote.

Packer further notes that the Center for a New American Security - �something like Obama�s foreign-policy think tank� - is urging a plan of �conditional engagement� not tied to a timetable. And former Obama adviser Samantha Power, not known for her discretion, told the BBC Obama �will, of course, not rely on some plan that he�s crafted as a presidential candidate or a U.S. Senator. He will rely upon a plan - an operational plan - that he pulls together in consultation with people who are on the ground to whom he doesn�t have daily access now . . . It would be the height of ideology to sort of say, �Well, I said it, therefore I�m going to impose it on whatever reality greets me.�� There are even reports that Obama might be trying to retain Bush Defense Secretary Robert Gates, which would provide a degree of strategic continuity.

In other words, Obama will get the U.S. out of Iraq when it appears prudent to do so. That is, as far as anyone can tell, is also the Bush administration�s position. Those on the left hanging their hopes on Obama ending the war swiftly might be in for a rude awakening.

Then there�s the Left�s ideological objection the Bush administration embracing the doctrine of preventative war. In a much discussed article oped in the Boston Globe last week, Boston University Professor Andrew Bacevich excoriated the Bush administration for his foreign-policy legacy and called Obama to �persuade Americans to repudiate the Bush legacy and to choose another course.�

In particular, he lamented that the Bush administration had �promulgated and implemented a doctrine of preventive war, thereby creating a far more permissive rationale for employing armed force.� Bacevich did not, however, take note of the fact that Obama has himself endorsed the doctrine of preventative war.

In his speech to AIPCE in early June, Obama said of Israel�s bombing of a Syrian site believed to be a nascent nuclear reactor, �Syria has taken dangerous steps in pursuit of weapons of mass destruction, which is why Israeli action was justified to end that threat.�

That�s even farther than the Reagan administration was willing to go when Israel bombed the Osirak Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981. While it tacitly approved of Israel�s actions, as a matter of public policy the administration supported a U.N. Resolution condemning Israel�s actions and withheld a promised shipment of aircraft in response.

This acceptance of preventative war has major implications for Obama�s stance on Iran. According to the Chicago Tribune, Obama has said �global leaders must do whatever it takes to stop Iran from enriching uranium and acquiring nuclear weapons.� Presumably, �whatever it takes� would include bombing Iranian reactors, and other preemptive attacks on Iran. So while Obama has said he doesn�t believe diplomatic options with Iran are exhausted, he is not on principle opposed to preventive attacks on Iran, a position that is complete anathema to many supporters.

Finally, Obama�s near complete reversal on Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and the Patriot Act show that he ultimately supports the Bush administration�s expansion of executive power to fight the war on terrorism. With his support of the compromise FISA, he�s not just going back on his previous position on FISA legislation but embracing a warrantless-surveillance program that most liberal Democrats have opposed on constitutional grounds.

In a recent oped for the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, liberal standard-bearer Sen. Russ Feingold wrote, �When the president claimed that he could wiretap innocent Americans without a warrant, he asserted one of the most intrusive government powers imaginable.� By Feingold�s own logic, Obama is not averse to wielding the �most intrusive government powers imaginable� for himself. Similarly, before Obama was in the Senate, he said he supported repealing the Patriot Act, but after he was in the Senate he voted to reauthorize it. (To be fair, it was reauthorized with minor changes.)

No doubt many people are eager to support Obama�s foreign policy because of pragmatic issues, or in response to the perceived incompetence of the Bush administration. And nobody�s arguing that there aren�t other, very important differences between the Obama, Bush, and McCain foreign policies - Israel is a point of contention, among other issues.

But if significant numbers of Democrats are supporting Obama because they believe he represents a complete ideological break from the Bush administration�s foreign policy, they�re kidding themselves. Ultimately, electing Barack Obama may go a long way toward validating much of Bush�s foreign-policy legacy.


By Mark Hemingway
Reprinted with permission from National Review Online.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:45 am    Post subject: Re: Obama for a "change" Reply with quote

bacasper wrote:
While Obama hasn�t committed to any specifics regarding how he�ll change his Iraq position


So, we don't know and are speculating. Yet there is a tsunami of tanned pundits crying about his rush to the middle. Why? One person says it and the rest repeat. McCain is a straight talker, repeat. Hillary is "embattled", repeat. Obama is rushing to the center, repeat.

Like Kerry's apparent flip flopping (voting for it before I voted against it) I anyways welcome a leader who is willing to change his mind as the facts of a situation change. We've had an ideologically stubborn monkey for 7 years running the most powerful country in the history of the world and I'd rather that not continue.

We do know that he will bring the war to an end very much before McCain would. That is a certainty.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps Obama thinks anything under McCain's 100 year war plan is an improvement.
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A2Steve



Joined: 10 Nov 2007

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

McCain fails to realize there is no military solution leading to "victory" in his sense. Putting more US troops in harm's way, when no other country has the brass or stupidity to do the same is ridiculous.

Iraq has become a multi-tiered civil war, that apparantly very few in the nation want to end anytime soon on a national level. To borrow a line from a current movie, "some men just want to watch the world burn....."
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spliff



Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Location: Khon Kaen, Thailand

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW, Mises...calling the leader of the free world a monkey. BTW, what's ur job? Laughing
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spliff wrote:
WOW, Mises...calling the leader of the free world a monkey. BTW, what's ur job? :lol:


A monkey, yes.
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Pligganease



Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Perhaps Obama thinks anything under McCain's 100 year war plan is an improvement.


Perhaps Obama has realized the truth in what George Bush is saying....

"We are winning the war in Iraq."
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spliff



Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Location: Khon Kaen, Thailand

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, if that's u in ur avatar u pretty much look like one.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pligganease wrote:
Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Perhaps Obama thinks anything under McCain's 100 year war plan is an improvement.


Perhaps Obama has realized the truth in what George Bush is saying....

"We are winning the war in Iraq."


Upon re-reading my post I see I worded it poorly. What I was trying to say was: Maybe Obama thinks staying in Iraq for any time under 100 years like McCain is proposing, is an improvement.
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pkang0202



Joined: 09 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pligganease wrote:
Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Perhaps Obama thinks anything under McCain's 100 year war plan is an improvement.


Perhaps Obama has realized the truth in what George Bush is saying....

"We are winning the war in Iraq."


Liberals don't want Iraq to progress and go well. They wanted Iraq to blow up in the Bush Administration's face. 2 years ago it was looking that way and the Liberals were all over it. Crying "Withdraw! Withdraw!".

Now that things are going well, due in part to Bush's and General Patraeus's troop surge, Liberals are starting to figure out that they can't point at Iraq and say "we need change ".

God forbid, what would happen if Kerry was in office. There would be no troop surge. The US would be out of Iraq and there would be a HUGE mess in the Middle East. Probably with Iran at the forefront expanding their power base.

Personally, I don't want a President that thinks, "When the going gets tough. We get going."
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, did you see the video of Iraq's prez wandering around handing out American money to his people? I bet a few Americans could have used that cash..

Anyways, you can piss and moan about liberals blah blah all you want. The war is coming to an abrupt end because American debt is likely to be downgraded either explicitly or implicitly and the gravy train of free money from the world will stop. All the pro-war rah rah won't be able to stop this. Broke as a joke. Thank Bush for your future tax increases and inflation.
Quote:

Hiroshi Watanabe, Japan's chief regulator, rattled the markets yesterday when he urged Japanese banks and life insurance companies to treat US agency debt with caution.


...almost there.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pkang0202 wrote:
Pligganease wrote:
Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Perhaps Obama thinks anything under McCain's 100 year war plan is an improvement.


Perhaps Obama has realized the truth in what George Bush is saying....

"We are winning the war in Iraq."


Liberals don't want Iraq to progress and go well. They wanted Iraq to blow up in the Bush Administration's face. 2 years ago it was looking that way and the Liberals were all over it. Crying "Withdraw! Withdraw!".


Did you even read the OP? BO is acknowledging that the situation on the ground matters when it comes to withdrawal. HE IS NOT CRYING 'WITHDRAW! WITHDRAW!" AND YET MCCAIN AND CAMP IS NOW TRYING TO PAINT HIM AS A FLIP-FLOPPER.

I'm tired of the people with poor reading comprehension deciding who gets to run this country. Now its our turn.
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mikeyboy122



Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Location: namyang

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If he wins, he'll get shot. Too many red-necks still in the states.
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mole



Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Act III

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes! Obama for a CHANGE!

Mises, I hear if you sprinkle salt on it, that thing on your face will drop off.
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spliff



Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Location: Khon Kaen, Thailand

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Now its our turn

Prey tell, who is "our"? I'd say 9 out of 10 people I talk to say they won't vote Obamma. Very Happy
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