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| Has abortion made your life better? |
| Yes |
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61% |
[ 19 ] |
| No |
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38% |
[ 12 ] |
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| Total Votes : 31 |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Note: I do not support abortion during the third trimester, and abortion during the second trimester I find controversial. |
That's about my position too. |
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crazylemongirl
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Location: almost there...
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| manlyboy wrote: |
This is a self evident truth that needs to be experienced in order to be understood. Become a father and you'll see what I mean. |
I'm not sure about other countries but according to official New Zealand statistics, half of the women who undergo abortions in that country are mothers to at least one child. A lot of those mums will also be single mums.
While I think it's great that your wife is pregnant you do need to realize that your 'hey great I got a baby on the way' viewpoint might be different to someone in different circumstances. |
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manlyboy
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Location: Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| crazylemongirl wrote: |
| manlyboy wrote: |
This is a self evident truth that needs to be experienced in order to be understood. Become a father and you'll see what I mean. |
I'm not sure about other countries but according to official New Zealand statistics, half of the women who undergo abortions in that country are mothers to at least one child. A lot of those mums will also be single mums.
While I think it's great that your wife is pregnant you do need to realize that your 'hey great I got a baby on the way' viewpoint might be different to someone in different circumstances. |
And do these difficult, stressful circumstances mean they are more easily able to discern whether or not their foetus is yet human? Does the impending crisis they are likely to face not compromise their judgement? How valuable is a viewpoint when the viewers well being is heavily invested in one side of the argument?
| Kuros wrote: |
| This leads us right back to the issue of whether or not there are really two bodies in the first trimester. Many of us are arguing there is not. |
That debate is a blind alley. Even if scientists could pin down the biological aspects - which they still can't - they could never pin down the psychological aspects. Not in our lifetimes anyway. Science is not yet equipped to deal with the study of foetal consciousness as it still has barely any idea what human consciousness itself is.
At this point we can only approach the issue from philosophical and/or moral standpoints. My standpoint is that you are either spiritual and think human life is sacred, or you are a materialist and think humans are essentially meaningless clumps of matter. |
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OneWayTraffic
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| manlyboy wrote: |
| crazylemongirl wrote: |
| manlyboy wrote: |
This is a self evident truth that needs to be experienced in order to be understood. Become a father and you'll see what I mean. |
I'm not sure about other countries but according to official New Zealand statistics, half of the women who undergo abortions in that country are mothers to at least one child. A lot of those mums will also be single mums.
While I think it's great that your wife is pregnant you do need to realize that your 'hey great I got a baby on the way' viewpoint might be different to someone in different circumstances. |
And do these difficult, stressful circumstances mean they are more easily able to discern whether or not their foetus is yet human? Does the impending crisis they are likely to face not compromise their judgement? How valuable is a viewpoint when the viewers well being is heavily invested in one side of the argument?
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Yet on the previous page you were basically arguing from your own experience with fatherhood and your own investment in your children. It's quite rightly been pointed out to you that not everyone is overjoyed to become a parent.
| Quote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| This leads us right back to the issue of whether or not there are really two bodies in the first trimester. Many of us are arguing there is not. |
That debate is a blind alley. Even if scientists could pin down the biological aspects - which they still can't - they could never pin down the psychological aspects. Not in our lifetimes anyway. Science is not yet equipped to deal with the study of foetal consciousness as it still has barely any idea what human consciousness itself is.
At this point we can only approach the issue from philosophical and/or moral standpoints. My standpoint is that you are either spiritual and think human life is sacred, or you are a materialist and think humans are essentially meaningless clumps of matter. |
False dichotomy. I don't know anyone who's entirely in either camp. Plenty of pro-lifers out there support the death penalty, guns for self defence and certain foreign wars. Plently of pro choicers who have a hard time killing an insect let alone a person.
I think that from an absolute perspective we are clumps of matter. That's pretty clear. Yet we are also sentient self aware clumps of matter capable of determining what values we choose to believe in or not. That is one reason why there is a diversity of opinions on this issue. There are many deeply religious people who do get abortions, simply because it's the best choice out of several bad ones.
And then there's the odd weirdo who gets pregnant and then gets an abortion just for kicks. With 6 billion people in the world I'm sure there's a few of those too. |
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