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[Underwaterbob]

[Omkara]

I still don't get what your gripe about material is, RTeacher.

I can't think of anything--save relationships--which is not matter or energy.

I guess you could say that anything that is immaterial is the meaning of a material or an energy. But, mind you, both matter and energy are not disjunct, but rather mutually dependent.

I guess it is the meaning of evolution that's got the religious folk so worried--so worried, in fact, that they'll deny the material evidence.

What is this other spiritual stuff you go on about? It must be meaning, if it is not chemistry.

[IncognitoHFX]

[Rteacher]

Re "Omkara's" nebulous points, I accept that real knowledge means understanding the difference between matter and spirit.

Here's the way Bhaktivedanta Swami responded when asked about some facet of Hegel's philosophy:

Syamasundara dasa: Hegel attempted to establish the relationship between concrete realities. Isolated facts, or moments, as he calls them, can never constitute the truth because the truth is the whole, an integrated unity that is organic and dynamic.

Srila Prabhupada: Just by analyzing ourselves, we can understand that I, the soul, am existing and that my bodily features are changing. When things change, we call them material. The spirit soul exists in all conditions, and that is the difference between spirit and matter.

Syamasundara dasa: Moments, factors in the organic whole, progress in an evolutionary way according to the course set by reason, which Hegel calls the Welt Geist, the World Spirit.

Srila Prabhupada: That World Spirit is a person. Unless you accept a personal God, there is no question of reason. The reason guiding everything in the universe is explained in Bhagavad-gita: mayadhyaksena prakrtih. "This material nature is working under My direction." (Bg. 9.10) Direction means reason; therefore as soon as you speak of reason, you must accept the Supreme Person who is directing everything according to His supreme reason.
http://www.mcremo.com/philosophy.html

Being vegetarian generally helps one to develop more of a sense of mercy toward other living beings and thus to avoid avoid some negative karma, but it's not enough to save one from serious sinful reactions.

The general principle (coming via disciplic succession) is that animal killing and meat-eating shoud be allowed only when necessary for survival.

Most modern atheists are innocent but misled by those who enviously want to imitate God and lord it over nature and other living beings.

[Underwaterbob]

[Rteacher]

I think that all of us who wanted to enjoy independently and separately from God have tried to imitate God to the extent that we've tried to enjoy and exploit everything..

Our original envy of God was causeless - we probably just wondered what it would be like to be the center of enjoyment (and we got caught by the material energy.

Since God has supplied and arranged for the maintenance (and destruction) of everything He's the ultimate owner and enjoyer of it all.

When we're naturally connected to God by loving devotional service we can also enjoy complete happiness, but when we misuse our free will by desiring to forget and avoid God we foolishly cut ourselves off from the reservoir of real pleasure and suffer what may seem like endless material miseries.

[mindmetoo]

[mindmetoo]

[Rteacher]

As far as I know, there is a philosophical foundation to every scientific theory. I think that evolutionary science currently assumes a type of monism, while most creationists assume dualism.

The Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy that I accept and am most familiar with is simultaneously dualistic and monistic.

If there is a paradigm shift to a theistic model that assumes a nonmaterial, unlimited God simultaneously existing both within and beyond each universe as the emanating source of all life and matter, I'd expect that many scientists would naturally shift the focus of investigations that were formerly based on a purely materialistic model.

Although the chart which the following is based on is a few years old, it contrasts some basic tenets (explicit or implicit) of evolution theory [shown in dark red] with those of one devotee scientist's interpretation of Vedic creationist teachings [shown in dark blue]:

Tenets of the Darwinian evolution theory Tenets of Vedic Teachings

1. The universal principle of evolution.

An evolutionary process created all living forms in this universe.

1. The universal principle of creation.

Whatever we see in this universe is the result of creation performed by an intelligent supreme being.

2. A Creator does not exist.

Everything, from the first living cell to the present diversity of plants animals and other species, developed through an evolutionary process. A divine being is not involved.

2. A Creator exists

God, Krishna, is the source of all energies both spiritual and material. He is the cause of all causes, of creation, maintenance and annihilation. The theistic scientific process of development of creation from the most subtle energies to the gross material energies and the creation of different species in all planets of this universe are described in detail in the Puranas such as Srimad Bhagavatam.

3. The material energy has always existed

The total amount of matter and energy is and was always the same even in the shrunken state of the pre-Big Bang mathematical point.

The law of conservation of matter supports this. Matter is neither created nor destroyed in chemical reactions.

3. The material energy is a transformation.

The amount of energy in the unlimited creation of God is always the same. A portion of His spiritual energy, under His supervision, transforms into subtle material energy (pradhana) that further transforms into gross material energy. This is the process of creation of gross material worlds. At annihilation, the whole process is reversed.

4. There is no difference between material processes and life processes.

Life was created by the combination of chemicals; the simple non-living elements under the influence of time, place and circumstances gradually changed into the basic building blocks of life then life itself. This is analogous to the process of nuclear fusion or nuclear fission whereby new atomic nuclei are created. The natural laws for the creation of life were and are the same and as unchanging as the laws governing geology, astronomy, physics the formation of galaxies.

4. There is a clear distinction between living and non-living.

Scientists know of some 120 elements and of their ability to enter different combinations. They do not understand the most important element we call spiriton, or atma in Sanskrit. This element is the main difference between living entities, whether sentient or not, and non-living entities. As long as the spiriton is present in a material body, that material body is pervaded by consciousness, the source of thinking, feeling, willing and activity. These abilities are not characteristic of any combination of the elements known to scientists.

5. Self-organization from the simple to the complex is caused by natural processes.

The processes of mutation and natural selection driven by the availability of energy (food) and ecological niches are the major driving forces in developing new living forms. This can lead over periods of geologic time to more complex and more specialized forms as some life forms adapt to exploit their position.

5. The natural processes of self-organization from the simple to the complex are limited and controlled.

Just as the spiriton pervades the body and keeps it active, similarly the entire universe is pervaded by the supreme spiriton that maintains everything. This Vedic truth is supported by branch of the theory of quantum mechanics that suggests that information is spread throughout the universe quicker then the speed of light. At the time of creation, everything is evolving under the control of the supreme spiriton or consciousness. Therefore, there is no question of independent self-organization. Dull matter could and will never create self-replicating organic life. Creation is the source of all the complexities that are gradually deteriorating - as proved by the second law of thermodynamics and our experience.

6. The mechanisms of evolution are: mutation, extinction and death.

Chance, accident, random mutations, ecological changes, changes in food sources, long periods of time and death are all part of evolutionary processes. Death and extinction eliminate those living entities that have become overspecialized and cannot adapt quickly enough when their ecological niche or food supply disappears.

6. Mutation, extinction, and death exist only in the material world but not in the abode of God.

As the result of falling down from the kingdom of God, the eternal spirit soul, life after life gets a new material body that undergoes six changes, namely birth, growth, duration, reproduction, dwindling and vanishing. The subtle process of elimination of the weaker, that the scientists do not speak about, is karma. In other words, in this material world everything happens according to the law of action and reaction. The concept of accident is excluded. Most often mutations do not change a species into another species, but merely help the living entities to adapt to new and changing times, places and circumstances.

7. There is no plan, goal, or purpose in the universe.

Evolution is a random process. There can therefore be no plan, no purpose and hence no creator for the universe.

7. Causes and results require a planner or goal-giver.

From the level of macrocosm down to the level of the smallest units, all the interrelated, interdependent, and differing complexities certainly lead to an unavoidable conclusion of an intelligent and conscious plan-maker. Thus, because all complex units are interrelated and interdependent they are proof of their purposeful existence. Plan and purpose have their cause in the creator, Krishna, the cause of all causes.

8. Genetic similarities prove common ancestry.

By using DNA, it is possible to construct an evolutionary "Tree of life". The number of mutations between differing life forms determines the position in the "Tree". Presently we do not have all the transitional forms but future discoveries will certainly fill up the gaps.

The common biochemical functions of all species are an obvious proof of common descent.

8. Genetic similarities prove common designer.

The similarities between the species are there because God used similar components when creating different forms of life. Thus, it is observed that certain biochemical functions are similar in all living entities.

9. The present is the key to the past.

The natural laws, in the past, present and future have always remained the same and unchanged

This principle of uniformitarianism states that physical processes as they exist now were the same in the past. Using this it is possible postulate what happened in the remote past. However, it is recognised there are limitations to this principle owing the complexity of and lack of understanding of the universe.

9. The past is the key to the present.

Vedic wisdom states unequivocally that the natural laws remain unchanged, as the Supreme Lord is their maintainer. However, He is free to change them. This especially happens at the time of creation and annihilation. Further, measuring and interpreting the events of past and future in this complex material world is limited because of imperfect senses, imperfect instruments and mistaken interpretations. Data can be interpreted in many different ways and all theories are open revision. Conclusively, our estimations of the past and future can only be vague at best and a mere guess at worst.

10. Evolution is a continuous process

The different life forms we know are all transitional from one form to another. As evolution is an undirected random process, it might result in improvements to or degeneration of the ability of present species to survive.

10. The different types of species were all created and they undergo only minor changes.

The total number of differing species is fixed, at 8.400.000 in the whole universe. Sometimes some species are manifested while others are non-manifested, depending on time, place and circumstance. The variations within species, microevolution, arise due to the exchange of their inherent genetic information. Mutations are mostly non-beneficial and cause damage to or loss of genetic information.
http://krishnascience.com/3_10tenets.html

[itaewonguy]

[mindmetoo]

[itaewonguy]

[itaewonguy]

[mindmetoo]

[JMO]