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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
What you quoted is not jizzya. |
I'd call that a textbook case of jizzya. |
No, it isn't. Did you read what he quoted? Some Christians hired Muslims to protect them from other Muslims in a non-Islamic state. That's not classic jizzya since there is no Islamic state, and that's only where it would apply, and attacking innocent Christians or harming they would warrant the death penalty for a Muslim via other Muslims. I think the jizzya system is outdated, prejudicial, but that's not what is occuring here since there is no state. They simply hired Muslim bodyguards to help them. The authorities should clamp down on these people if they are creating problems. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| It is no different that hiring the mafia to protect you from the mafia. That is called tribute, and so is this. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| It is no different that hiring the mafia to protect you from the mafia. That is called tribute, and so is this. |
It is still not jizzya. If you are against jizzya, that's another matter, so am I, but it is not jizzya, because under the jizzya system there has to be an Islamic state, and you don't harass people at churches. That's forbidden against the Islamic religion even if some nut cases do that.
This is not quite tribute exactly. Tribute is when you are conquered.
This is like hiring mercenaries. I am not sure it's quite the same.
Any other thoughts from other users? I just think you are stretching things. The point is you were saying jizzya exists, and strictly speaking it was abolished, and it does not exist. I don't know anyone who credibly says it exists. It doesn't mean there isn't Muslim bullying of minorities or people in certain states. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| It is no different that hiring the mafia to protect you from the mafia. That is called tribute, and so is this. |
It is still not jizzya. If you are against jizzya, that's another matter, so am I, but it is not jizzya, because under the jizzya system there has to be an Islamic state, and you don't harass people at churches. |
Oh, with the natives refusing to leave their homes due to immigrant muslim violence I'm quite sure you can push aside the requirement of the area having to be an islamic state. Looks like the muslims are calling the shots.
Second, the idea that you don't harass people at churches is wrong. The jizzya is a conversation tax. The muslims will explicitly attack churches to extract the tax that then forces the natives to convert due to the financial burden. You didn't think all those locals throughout the world converted cause they liked sticking their ass up in the air 5 times a day, did you?
And this is but one example. Europe actually has quite a large number of instances where monies are paid to muslims to stop muslim violence. Africa too. But then again, Africa still has muslim slavery. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| It is no different that hiring the mafia to protect you from the mafia. That is called tribute, and so is this. |
It is still not jizzya. |
I dunno, Adventurer; jyzzya is as jizzya does... |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| Anyways, I'm going to excuse American racial segregation because the muslims segregated along religion. You cool with that Adventurer? Every time somebody mentions segregation in the south, I'm going to bring up the plight of the Assyrians and Copts as a way to deflect responsibility for crimes against humanity farther back in history. Monkey see Monkey do. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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The house bigots have spoken.
For another view: The best schools in Turkey are run by a progressive Sufi-influenced Moslem, churches have been opened in Islamic lands, a woman has become a judge in Egypt, the King of Saudi Arabia calls a conference in Spain on religious toleration...Yep, the only place where things stay the same is among the western bigots. Predictable. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
The house bigots have spoken.
For another view: The best schools in Turkey are run by a progressive Sufi-influenced Moslem, churches have been opened in Islamic lands, a woman has become a judge in Egypt, the King of Saudi Arabia calls a conference in Spain on religious toleration... |
That's mighty white of them.
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| Yep, the only place where things stay the same is among the western bigots. Predictable. |
Great! Complain about mafia-like tactics in your neighborhood and you get a lecture about how, in Italy, the trains run on time, there's some great opera by Puccini, some great filmmaking, yada yada yada... 
Last edited by Leslie Cheswyck on Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Yep, the only place where things stay the same is among the western bigots. Predictable. |
Or liberal idiots like yourself taking calls for tolerance by the world's most religiously intolerant state at face value.
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| churches have been opened in Islamic lands |
The fact that this even constitutes 'news' should tell you something about Islamic 'tolerance'.
In other news, 2 Christian girls are kidnapped in Pakistan, forced to convert to Islam, and the judge rules that no crime has been committed. But a bearded man in a dish-dash says the word 'tolerance' and everything is fine....how easily you fools are played. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: |
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UK government's efforts to promote human rights in Saudi Arabia have resulted in failure
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"The government's stated policy of assisting with gradual reform is simply not adequate in the face of the dramatically increased use of the death penalty and the continued repression of women's rights.
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Does anyone seriously believe the Interfaith Forum is anything but a ploy to showcase a more liberal image of Saudi's austere and absolutely rancorous version of Sunni Islam? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Another example of jyzzia.
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Philippine bishop reports receiving threat to convert to Islam
By Catholic News Service
Published Jul 22, 2008
MANILA, Philippines (CNS) -- A bishop in the southern Philippines reported receiving a letter threatening him with harm if he does not convert to Islam or pay "Islamic taxes."
Bishop Martin Jumoad of Isabela also told the Asian church news agency UCA News that he got text messages from Catholics saying they, too, had received threatening letters.
The letter had the names "Puruji Indama" and "Nur Hassan J. Kallitut" printed at the bottom and "mujahedin" under each name. The purported senders introduced themselves as "Muslim warriors" who "don't follow any laws other than the Quran," Islam's holy book.
They said Bishop Jumoad should choose to convert to Islam or give "jizya," Islamic tax, to their group in exchange for protecting him in the "place of Muslims."
If he refuses to convert or pay, the letter threatened "force, weapons or war may be used" against him. It warned him not to feel safe even if he is "surrounded by soldiers" and cited bombings in various cities.
Bishop Jumoad was given 15 days to respond, with two mobile phone numbers to contact.
"If we do not receive response from you, it means you will oppose," the letter added.
A document written in the local dialect on the letterhead of "Al-Harakatul Islamiyya" accompanied the letter. The bishop said he did not recognize the names, but has encountered the phrase "Al-Harakatul" in kidnapping incidents in Basilan involving Abu Sayyaf, a guerrilla group named as a terrorist organization by various countries.
On July 21, CBCP News, the online news site of the Catholic Bishops' Conference of the Philippines, reported the kidnapping of five parishioners of St. Vincent Ferrer Parish in Sumisip.
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I doubt they will pay. I hope they don't pay. But given the situation in the country, I wouldn't fault them if they did. |
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