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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: ... |
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| I forgot how alike their sharia law and our love of freedom and basic human rights really are. Shame on me. Embarassed |
Maybe you should be waterboarded.  |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
Ah yes, because nativism in the past was grounded in much more frivolous concerns. I guess the Anti-Papism movement was based on a general dislike for the "Friday fish fry." And putting the Japanese and Germans in internment camps was over their use of pickled vegetables. No siree, a clash over "western laws and beliefs" has never reared its ugly head before in the immigration debate. |
Sorry, haffdaddy. Your arguments don't dignify a response, but here goes anyway. I can easily argue that millions of Chinese are now GOOD for the west, while muslims are not. I can easily argue that internment camps were implemented at the same time that 'More Doctors Smoke Camels Than Any Other Cigarette'.
The US brings in millions of immigrants from around the world: Chinese, koreans, Ukrainians, Phillipinos, Kenyans, etc., and they tend to vote Democrat or Republican. Muslims, and only muslims, tend to push a different political agenda. Hence we have this at best:
http://europenews.dk/en/node/12660
And this at worst:
http://3news.co.nz/News/InternationalNews/BlastsinIndiakillatleast45wound161/tabid/417/articleID/64618/cat/61/Default.aspx
You must realize that times have changed, and we are facing a new problem: the rise of an insane ideology and its spread to the west. You refuse to acknowledge this; however. Much like how leftist apologists refused to acknowledge the evil of Hitler until after a million people died.
You obviously have a firm stance on the issue, and there is no changing your mind about it. I'll let the others on this thread hand your azz to you. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
| The US brings in millions of immigrants from around the world: Chinese, koreans, Ukrainians, Phillipinos, Kenyans, etc., and they tend to vote Democrat or Republican. Muslims, and only muslims, tend to push a different political agenda. |
While Britain, France, and other nations in Europe have a problem on their hands with some Muslims who put their religion ahead of their nationality, in the United States the big problem is some Jews who put the interests of a foreign Jewish state ahead of the interests of America. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
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| I forgot how alike their sharia law and our love of freedom and basic human rights really are. Shame on me. Embarassed |
Maybe you should be waterboarded. |
Cute. But, waterboarding or no, allowing large numbers of Muslims to settle in your country is just a bad, bad idea. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Ha ha. I guess birds of a different feather flock together. My neighborhood in MN is a motley collection of Somalis, yuppies, hipsters, and drifters. They ended up voting a Muslim into Congress.
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Keith Ellison, right? If I recall, he's actually on the liberal end of the social- issues spectrum. Certainly well to the left of many(though not all) of the people who shout the loudest about the Islamic peril. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Kimbop wrote: |
| I joined this discussion kinda late. I don't feel like reading all five pages.. Is haffdaddy actually trying to insinuate that there is NO muslim immigration problem in the western world? |
There's been an "immigration problem" in the US for over 200 years. I think enough is enough with the cries of consternation regarding immigration. Haven't we learned the cries of "Wolf! Wolf!" are the lamentations of xenophobic nativists? Or are we really suppose to believe that this time is finally different? |
You're making the appeal to tradition fallacy. The thread is also about the UK, so the US point is a red herring.
Anyway, I don't envisage a major problem with Muslim immigration into the US with the exception of Saudi-sponsored Wahhabist hate being preached in mosques, but Europe will be a lot worse. The reason is that the US is very successful at integration. The reason for that is its tradition of doctrinaire nationalism and allegiance - concepts somewhat taboo in the UK. I've met Muslim-Americans (and saw a documentary recently on being a Muslim-American in the aftermath of 9/11) and they always give the impression they're Americans first and foremost and Muslims second (as is the case with all hyphenated-Americans), in stark contrast to UK Muslims. It's a highly segregated society for a start, and secondly, the UK has completely failed to build an all-color nationalist ideology. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| in stark contrast to UK Muslims. It's a highly segregated society for a start, and secondly, the UK has completely failed to build an all-color nationalist ideology. |
Is this not really the heart of the problem? Europeans have ethnic-based states and only recently began allowing immigration on a significant scale without figuring out how to open up and accept the immigrants? "We want your labor but we don't want you" kind of approach.
The real question becomes: Will Europeans develop a new, more sophisticated definition of nationality or remain in the 1930's blood-based definition that brought such horror to the world? |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
| Sorry, haffdaddy. Your arguments don't dignify a response, but here goes anyway. I can easily argue that millions of Chinese are now GOOD for the west, while muslims are not. |
Not without resorting to the same tired old arguments that were used to argue against the Chinese in the past. And the Irish, and the Germans, and the Japanese, and the Jews, ad nauseum. But this time, we're supposed to believe it's "different." That the nativists have finally gotten it "right." Ummm, sure.
| Quote: |
| Muslims, and only muslims, tend to push a different political agenda. |
"Only Muslims push a different political agenda"? Seriously? Think about it.
Yes, I see how bombings in India are significant. Kind of like how we should have kept Japanese out of America (or in internment camps) because of Hirohito.
| Quote: |
| You must realize that times have changed, and we are facing a new problem: the rise of an insane ideology and its spread to the west. You refuse to acknowledge this; however. Much like how leftist apologists refused to acknowledge the evil of Hitler until after a million people died. |
You're comparing Muslim immigrants to Hitler? |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| You're making the appeal to tradition fallacy. The thread is also about the UK, so the US point is a red herring. |
Well yes, the UK is newer to these "problems". But we're hearing the same arguments that we in America have been hearing for oh-so-long. That the UK is going through the same process America was going through 200 years is even stronger proof of how frivolous the arguments are. We already know how the story turns out. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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Ha ha. I guess birds of a different feather flock together. My neighborhood in MN is a motley collection of Somalis, yuppies, hipsters, and drifters. They ended up voting a Muslim into Congress.
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Keith Ellison, right? If I recall, he's actually on the liberal end of the social- issues spectrum. Certainly well to the left of many(though not all) of the people who shout the loudest about the Islamic peril. |
Yes. But let's ignore the fact that the only Muslim in Congress actually supports GLBT rights. Wanting Ramadan to be recognized clearly indicates he's a radical on the verge of strapping a bomb to himself and blowing up the Capitol. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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I see we're moving the goal posts again, eh?
What exactly do Muslims in Islamic nations have to do with the price of tea in China? Given your implication, and the million or two Muslims in America, I guess we should expect to see gays dropping left and right at the hands of Islamic fundamentalists. Is that the case? |
I'm moving the goalposts? You're the one bringing up the case of the US in a thread about Muslims in the UK. Anyway, I was merely pointing to the ambiguity of the word 'discourage'. You have no idea what Muslims mean when they say that homosexuality should be 'discouraged'.
By the way, Muslims are still a very small minority in the US. When they reach European levels, we shall no doubt see the same demands, the same cultural separation and many of the same problems. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Kimbop wrote: |
| Sorry, haffdaddy. Your arguments don't dignify a response, but here goes anyway. I can easily argue that millions of Chinese are now GOOD for the west, while muslims are not. |
Not without resorting to the same tired old arguments that were used to argue against the Chinese in the past. And the Irish, and the Germans, and the Japanese, and the Jews, ad nauseum. But this time, we're supposed to believe it's "different." That the nativists have finally gotten it "right." Ummm, sure. |
We in the west are much, much smarter now; we only acknowledge actual threats. Irish, Germans, Japanese, etc are mostly sane, and we welcome them. They don't export suicide bombers. Or any of the other evils that Muslim countries advocate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umm_Nidal
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Kimbop wrote: |
| Muslims, and only muslims, tend to push a different political agenda. |
"Only Muslims push a different political agenda"? Seriously? Think about it. |
Yes, only Muslims push an evil political agenda under the guise of 'religion' which is at odds with the western world. Some eastern Ukrainian immigrants may be devout communists, but only brainwashed animals advocate sharia.
| huffdaddy wrote: |
Yes, I see how bombings in India are significant. Kind of like how we should have kept Japanese out of America (or in internment camps) because of Hirohito. |
Illicit generalization. Japs don't bomb civilians in other countries. Japanese priests don't instruct their children to be martyrs. Japan is one country; a fraction of the threat of the muslim world. Japs are fairly docile, actually. Are you arguing that muslims are docile? Visit a muslim neighborhood in Brussels. Or Paris.
India is predominantly Hindu, although Islamic terrorism from its neighbors is an almost daily occurrence. I'm sure you already know this. I'm also sure you already know that Islam cannot live in peace with other religions: Muslims aggress in Thailand, Lebanon, Sudan, Philippines, India, Pakistan, etc. and more recently in Spain and England.
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Kimbop wrote: |
| You must realize that times have changed, and we are facing a new problem: the rise of an insane ideology and its spread to the west. You refuse to acknowledge this; however. Much like how leftist apologists refused to acknowledge the evil of Hitler until after a million people died. |
You're comparing Muslim immigrants to Hitler? |
Yes, I'm comparing the uncivilized and barbaric savagery of muslims to Nazism. Both share many traits, although Hitler enjoyed wine and painting pictures. |
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patongpanda
Joined: 06 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
Yes, I'm comparing the uncivilized and barbaric savagery of muslims to Nazism. Both share many traits, although Hitler enjoyed wine and painting pictures. |
The Fuhrer did not drink alcohol.
From Hitler wie ihn keiner kennt by Baldur von Schirach:
Hitler is a universal spirit. The multiplicity of his being cannot be communicated by 100 photographs selected from thousands. These pictures show only some aspects of this unique personality. It is almost unknown that Hitler does not drink alcohol or smoke, or that he is a vegetarian. Without insisting that anyone follow his example, even in his closest circle, he holds like iron to his self-established principles. He works amazingly hard. Not only does he head the enormous apparatus of the National Socialist movement, he makes strenuous speaking tours. Today he is in K�nigsberg, tomorrow in Berlin, the next day in Munich, all this with a minimum of sleep, since the F�hrer usually works into the early hours of the morning.
Much nonsense is spread about his private life. A few words on the topic. Hitler's greatest joy is his library of about 6,000 volumes. He has read them, not just paged through. The larger share consists of books on architecture and history. In both areas Hitler has masterful authority. For him, art is essential, music above all. As he says, "If the artists knew what I would do for German art, none of them would oppose me."
Naive people believe that Adolf Hitler lives a life of ease, working an eight hour day and then visiting a cafe. Few have any idea of the enormous burdens on his shoulders.
Our age will perhaps honor and love this great man, but will not be able to understand his true greatness. It does not need to.
We need only look respectfully on the powerful personality of the F�hrer, and thank God in Heaven that he has not left us alone. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| I'm moving the goalposts? You're the one bringing up the case of the US in a thread about Muslims in the UK. Anyway, I was merely pointing to the ambiguity of the word 'discourage'. You have no idea what Muslims mean when they say that homosexuality should be 'discouraged'. |
And nor do you. That we don't see a daily reports of Muslim on gay violence would seem to indicate that your concerns are a little over stated. With several million Muslims in the US, even if only 1% were violently opposed to gays we'd expect to see dozens of reports daily. If it were the 50% you seem to imply, there'd be a bloodbath going on.
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| By the way, Muslims are still a very small minority in the US. When they reach European levels, we shall no doubt see the same demands, the same cultural separation and many of the same problems. |
You do realize that America already has numerous immigrant groups at levels exceeding that of European Muslims. Groups that have been, at one time or another, assailed for being detrimental to the future of the US. Irish, Germans, and Hispanics being the the biggest examples. One could also count blacks (who were assailed during their internal migration) and Asians, which account for over 10% of many large cities.
Were the wailings of previous nativists all for naught? Or is America really worse off for having these groups?
Last edited by huffdaddy on Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
| We in the west are much, much smarter now; we only acknowledge actual threats. Irish, Germans, Japanese, etc are mostly sane, and we welcome them. |
Ah yes, we are so much wiser and reasonable now. We have learned from our mistakes and only cry "Wolf!" when there really is a wolf.
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| They don't export suicide bombers. Or any of the other evils that Muslim countries advocate: |
The moving goalposts are at it again. Where are all these suicide bombers again? Oh yeah, 19 nuts jobs that eluded crappy airport security.
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| Yes, only Muslims push an evil political agenda under the guise of 'religion' which is at odds with the western world. Some eastern Ukrainian immigrants may be devout communists, but only brainwashed animals advocate sharia. |
The Christian right doesn't have a political agenda? Bwahahaha.
And to move the goalposts, once again, is disingenuous. Whether your concern is animal rights, environmental right, abortion, prayer in school, evolution/ID, or whatever, every group has a political agenda. There's nothing wrong with having a political agenda. That's what democracy is all about.
| kimbop wrote: |
| Illicit generalization. Japs don't bomb civilians in other countries. Japanese priests don't instruct their children to be martyrs. |
Seriously, where are you from? Have you taken any history classes? Did you miss WWII?
| Kimbop wrote: |
| Yes, I'm comparing the uncivilized and barbaric savagery of muslims to Nazism. Both share many traits, although Hitler enjoyed wine and painting pictures. |
Godwin's Law in action. I imagine the air around Dearborn must be acrid from all the gas ovens in use there. |
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