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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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 Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| And nor do you. That we don't see a daily reports of Muslim on gay violence would seem to indicate that your concerns are a little over stated. With several million Muslims in the US, even if only 1% were violently opposed to gays we'd expect to see dozens of reports daily. If it were the 50% you seem to imply, there'd be a bloodbath going on. |
I suggest you read Bruce Bawer's 'When Europe Slept' for a gay man's opinion of the growth of Islam in Europe. In fact, places like Rotterdam, which has a huge Muslim population are becoming increasingly dangerous for gays to live openely.
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You do realize that America already has numerous immigrant groups at levels exceeding that of European Muslims. Groups that have been, at one time or another, assailed for being detrimental to the future of the US. Irish, Germans, and Hispanics being the the biggest examples. One could also count blacks (who were assailed during their internal migration) and Asians, which account for over 10% of many large cities.
Were the wailings of previous nativists all for naught? Or is America really worse off for having these groups? |
Just because previous anti-immigrant sentiment was proved to be unfounded, does not mean that present anti-Muslim sentiment is baseless. For one thing, previous generations of immigrants to the US (and indeed to the UK) were from Western nations, and readily accepted liberal democratic norms and values. It remains to be seen whether that is the case with American Muslims, and it is becoming increasingly clear that it is not the case with a large proportion of European Muslims, who were attracted by the economic benefits, but who often have an open contempt for our culture and our values. The question remains as to why this failed social project is being allowed to continue when it is so obviously failing and when the negative impacts on Europeans are there for all to see.
But the Irish integrated, so we have nothing to fear from the thousands coming from such open and democratic societies like Somalia, Iraq and Pakistan, because after all, cultures are all equally worthy aren't they? |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| I suggest you read Bruce Bawer's 'When Europe Slept' for a gay man's opinion of the growth of Islam in Europe. In fact, places like Rotterdam, which has a huge Muslim population are becoming increasingly dangerous for gays to live openely. |
I'd say pass stronger anti-harassment laws and enforce them. But that would probably be considered too "multicultural" for some.
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| Just because previous anti-immigrant sentiment was proved to be unfounded, does not mean that present anti-Muslim sentiment is baseless. |
Yes, the wolf is really there this time. We're sure of it.
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| The question remains as to why this failed social project is being allowed to continue when it is so obviously failing and when the negative impacts on Europeans are there for all to see. |
Possibly because the majority of Europeans, and an increasing number at that, see Muslim integration as overall beneficial. This despite increasing concerns about Muslim extremists.
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| But the Irish integrated, so we have nothing to fear from the thousands coming from such open and democratic societies like Somalia, Iraq and Pakistan, because after all, cultures are all equally worthy aren't they? |
I believe there's your problem. You see people as representatives of their culture and country. I see people as people. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:37 am Post subject: |
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Huffdaddy wrote
Don't just tell me what percent of Muslims hate homosexuals. Tell me what percent of Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Jews, Fundamentalists, and atheists hate homosexuals. Otherwise, you're just throwing out meaningless numbers.
Why don't you look at what percentage of those groups today believe that it is ok to execute homosexuals?? ( or those who believe that it's ok to kill those who speak against God's prophet, let alone draw a damnn catoon about him. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Of course if you were trying to find data on religious violence you might actually ask actual questions about Holy Books and religious laws that have been used for violence in the past and whether or not people still agree with those laws.
And why would you ask non-Muslims about implementing Islamic law? What exactly would that prove?
See my post above yours for a more honest and fair comparison |
A good social scientist wouldn't limit it just to sharia but also the talmud and any other code of religious law. My guess is that sharia has quite a few people who want to see it put in place not just for them but for the entire country. Anyway since Muslims aren't killing any gays (in the west) then I guess it's ok for a large percentage of the population to advocate a system of law that would allow it. Right? |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: |
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Anti-Catholicism presents an interesting analogy.
http://www.geocities.com/chiniquy/Literature.html
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| Textbooks used in American grade schools from the Revolution until the Civil War sowed the seeds of nativism in young minds. Anti-Catholicism appeared as a prominent theme in these texts. The authors consistently lauded Protestantism as the true faith of Christianity. By contrast, they portrayed Catholicism as opposed not only to the valid Church but also to the free Republic. "An American adult in 1830," according to historian Ruth Elson, "had already as a youth been fully indoctrinated in anti-Catholicism." |
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| Nativists scrutinized the Mass, the sacraments, and the priesthood in works such as William Hogan's Auricular Confession and Popish Nunneries (1848), High and Low Mass in the Catholic Church (1846), William Potts' Dangers of Jesuit Instruction (1846), and the anonymous Pope or President? Startling Discoveries of Romanism as Revealed by its Own Writers (1859). |
The similarities are eerily similar. Of course, this time, it really is different. Right fellas? |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: |
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Please dispense with the insults.
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Kimbop wrote: |
| We in the west are much, much smarter now; we only acknowledge actual threats. Irish, Germans, Japanese, etc are mostly sane, and we welcome them. |
Ah yes, we are so much wiser and reasonable now. We have learned from our mistakes and only cry "Wolf!" when there really is a wolf. |
Yes! He CAN be taught!!!
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Kimbop wrote: |
| They don't export suicide bombers. Or any of the other evils that Muslim countries advocate: |
The moving goalposts are at it again. Where are all these suicide bombers again? Oh yeah, 19 nuts jobs that eluded crappy airport security. |
No goalposts were moved. You said that Irish and German cultures are just as evil as Muslim's. I illustrated this is as being foolish.
Ah. so suicide bombers aren't the problem; It's airport security's fault!!
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Kimbop wrote: |
| Yes, only Muslims push an evil political agenda under the guise of 'religion' which is at odds with the western world. Some eastern Ukrainian immigrants may be devout communists, but only brainwashed animals advocate sharia. |
The Christian right doesn't have a political agenda? Bwahahaha.
And to move the goalposts, once again, is disingenuous. Whether your concern is animal rights, environmental right, abortion, prayer in school, evolution/ID, or whatever, every group has a political agenda. There's nothing wrong with having a political agenda. That's what democracy is all about. |
No goal posts were moved. Thanks also for adding nothing to your offense, but instead opting to throw more attacks. HOw about YOU defend Islam? Key word: EVIL. None of the above advocate death to America and Israel, death to kuffars, gays, apostates, adulterers, etc. None of the above political groups breed hatred for the sake of a political agenda. The above groups invite members; Islam forces it.
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Kimbop wrote: |
| Illicit generalization. Japs don't bomb civilians in other countries. Japanese priests don't instruct their children to be martyrs. |
Seriously, where are you from? Have you taken any history classes? Did you miss WWII? |
Is that the best you can do? I think readers are laughing at you.
Thank Gawd Japan embraced democracy and ditched the totalitarian empire about 60 years ago. Japanese suicide bombers pretty much ceased to exist at about the same time. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here; Japanese immigrants advocate wearing miniskirts, while Muslim immigrants..... aw, hell, we get the picture.
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Kimbop wrote: |
| Yes, I'm comparing the uncivilized and barbaric savagery of muslims to Nazism. Both share many traits, although Hitler enjoyed wine and painting pictures. |
Godwin's Law in action. I imagine the air around Dearborn must be acrid from all the gas ovens in use there. |
You're thinking I want to kill Muslims? I want to enlighten them; snip the problem at the bud -- and stop the teachers in muslim countries from teaching evil to their 5.7 babies per woman. That's what the US is doing in Iraq. There will be hope for the middle east after all! And the west is winning! Woohoo!
btw, there are very few Nazis in Dearborn!
You're going to reply with some more illicit genralizations that attack western ideals, rather than defend Islamism! I'm clairvoyant! |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: |
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""
Anti-Catholicism presents an interesting analogy.
http://www.geocities.com/chiniquy/Literature.html
Quote:
Textbooks used in American grade schools from the Revolution until the Civil War sowed the seeds of nativism in young minds. Anti-Catholicism appeared as a prominent theme in these texts. The authors consistently lauded Protestantism as the true faith of Christianity. By contrast, they portrayed Catholicism as opposed not only to the valid Church but also to the free Republic. "An American adult in 1830," according to historian Ruth Elson, "had already as a youth been fully indoctrinated in anti-Catholicism."
Quote:
Nativists scrutinized the Mass, the sacraments, and the priesthood in works such as William Hogan's Auricular Confession and Popish Nunneries (1848), High and Low Mass in the Catholic Church (1846), William Potts' Dangers of Jesuit Instruction (1846), and the anonymous Pope or President? Startling Discoveries of Romanism as Revealed by its Own Writers (1859).
The similarities are eerily similar. Of course, this time, it really is different. Right fellas?""
Ahhh yes a Catholic in 1831 is quite similar to today's muslim. Catholics in 1831 widely supported the public execution of homosexuals. Catholic woman were covered head to toe and several Catholic woman had acid thrown in their faces because they didn't submit. In fact in Rome there were several public executions of homosexual teenagers that year, not to mention 10's of thousands of Catholics taking to the streets across France, Spain, Italy and parts of Latin America to protest a series of newspaper cartoons that had offended them.
Anyway yes right Huffy no differences. None at all. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
| No goalposts were moved. You said that Irish and German cultures are just as evil as Muslim's. I illustrated this is as being foolish. |
The Germans produced the Nazis and the Irish produced the IRA. Looks like the Muslims still have some catching up to do in the evil category.
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| btw, there are very few Nazis in Dearborn! |
According to you, there are lots of them.
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| You're going to reply with some more illicit genralizations that attack western ideals, rather than defend Islamism! I'm clairvoyant! |
But we all know Western ideals are the epitome of culture. Westerners have done no wrong. Westerners have always been equal in sex, gender, race, sexual orientation, and religion. There is no man behind the curtain. Look away. Look away. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| postfundie wrote: |
| Ahhh yes a Catholic in 1831 is quite similar to today's muslim. Catholics in 1831 widely supported the public execution of homosexuals. |
And Muslims in America do? Cite?
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| Catholic woman were covered head to toe |
They do have that habit.
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| and several Catholic woman had acid thrown in their faces because they didn't submit. |
In the US? Where? Cite?
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| In fact in Rome there were several public executions of homosexual teenagers that year, |
In the US? At the hands of Muslims? Where? Cite?
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| not to mention 10's of thousands of Catholics taking to the streets across France, Spain, Italy and parts of Latin America to protest a series of newspaper cartoons that had offended them. |
You missed the Bible riots, eh?
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| Anyway yes right Huffy no differences. None at all. |
You can quibble over the specific details of the comparison. But yeah, essentially the same.
http://candst.tripod.com/boston3.htm
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Statistically at least, the view was correct. Although Roman Catholics had lived in the country since the Colonial period, they were few in number and politically impotent. A great wave of immigration from Ireland in the 1830's and 1840's threatened to change that. Most of the Irish were Catholics fleeing the potato famine, and their arrival on these shores in large numbers caused near panic among the Protestant majority.
Catholics were considered a threat; they resisted assimilation and were accused of owing their loyalty to a foreign potentate - the Roman pope. Their religion was widely misunderstood, and rumors circulated. Priests were accused of sexual depravity. Priests and nuns, it was said, had engaged in illicit affairs and killed the offspring, burying them beneath the floors of convents. As bizarre as these stories sound today, they were taken seriously by many Americans in the 1840's. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Kimbop wrote: |
| No goalposts were moved. You said that Irish and German cultures are just as evil as Muslim's. I illustrated this is as being foolish. |
The Germans produced the Nazis and the Irish produced the IRA. Looks like the Muslims still have some catching up to do in the evil category.
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Remember 12 hours ago when you attacked Japan? And I illustrated how silly that was? Here's a reminder:
| Kimbop wrote: |
Thank Gawd Japan embraced democracy and ditched the totalitarian empire about 60 years ago. Japanese suicide bombers pretty much ceased to exist at about the same time. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here; Japanese immigrants advocate wearing miniskirts, while Muslim immigrants..... aw, hell, we get the picture. |
Attacking Germany and Ireland is just as foolish. The IRA killed a few dozen people and stopped more than 15 years ago.
Stop your foolish arguments! Defend Islam!
| huffdaddy wrote: |
But we all know Western ideals are the epitome of culture. Westerners have done no wrong. Westerners have always been equal in sex, gender, race, sexual orientation, and religion. There is no man behind the curtain. Look away. Look away. |
Are you being sarcastic? Move to Sudan, iran, Saudi Arabia, or Yemen. You don't deserve to live in the west.
Defend Islam! Try it!
Last edited by Kimbop on Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: ... |
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| In fact, places like Rotterdam, which has a huge Muslim population are becoming increasingly dangerous for gays to live openely. |
Well, unsupported and unqualified, that could mean a great many different things.
Re: Rotterdam gays, how close to the European apocalypse are we? |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Kimbop wrote: |
| No goalposts were moved. You said that Irish and German cultures are just as evil as Muslim's. I illustrated this is as being foolish. |
The Germans produced the Nazis and the Irish produced the IRA. Looks like the Muslims still have some catching up to do in the evil category.
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Remember 12 hours ago when you attacked Japan? And I illustrated how silly that was? Here's a reminder:
| Kimbop wrote: |
Thank Gawd Japan embraced democracy and ditched the totalitarian empire about 60 years ago. Japanese suicide bombers pretty much ceased to exist at about the same time. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here; Japanese immigrants advocate wearing miniskirts, while Muslim immigrants..... aw, hell, we get the picture. |
Attacking Germany and Ireland is just as foolish. The IRA killed a few dozen people and stopped more than 15 years ago. |
Dude, the comparison isn't between Muslims now and Japanese, Germans, and Irish now. It's between Muslims now, and Japanese, Germans, and Irish in the past. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that the Catholic experience of immigrating to the US is relevant to this discussion. The most important link is the fear and hostility they were met with by the Protestant locals. That fear wasn't unique to the US--if I'm not mistaken, Catholics were not allowed to vote in 1830's England. It took more than a century for the Protestants to get over their fear and hatred of Catholics. The Klan had no problem adding them to the list of who they regarded as threats to the republic well into the 20th Century. The century and a half of religious wars in Europe were not easily forgotten. Even in 1960 Kennedy had to say that he would ignore the pope if there was a conflict between his religion and national interest.
Daniel Walker Howe wrote (in his Pulitzer Prize winning book "What Hath God Wrought: The Transformation of America 1815-1848") "In the final analysis, the success of Roman Catholicism...reflected the way it met the needs of immigrants themselves....Belonging to the church helped immigrants adjust to a new and unfamiliar environment while affirming the dignity of their own ancestral group and preserving an aspect of its heritage." (p 201)
The irony of this discussion is that the hostility of Europeans will likely drive immigrants to more strongly identify with their motherland and religion. What Europe needs is more tolerance, not less. What Europe needs is more confidence in the Enlightenment values. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Dude, the comparison isn't between Muslims now and Japanese, Germans, and Irish now. It's between Muslims now, and Japanese, Germans, and Irish in the past. |
Right. Jap, German, and IRA ideologies were evil in the past. They advocated the death of millions of innocents, and gladly would have killed thousands on the spot if given the chance. Good thing they embraced democracy and sanity. Since they're no longer hate-mongering ideological killers, let's welcome them to our countries.
Let's pray that the moslem world also adopts change very soon. Let's be optimistic!
It's been a gas, hafdaddy! Thanks for the intriguing debate! |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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