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2CuteNCanadian
Joined: 10 Dec 2003
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 Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:10 pm Post subject: Contract Negotiations |
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Figure it best not to write anything
Last edited by 2CuteNCanadian on Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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itchy
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Contract Negotiations |
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| 2CuteNCanadian wrote: |
| As a first timer....would anyone care to share their experiences with negotiating your contract. Ie...pay, vacation, accomodations etc.... |
Take what they give you. If they really like you you might be able to get some vacation time and maybe more than 2.0 per month, but generally not. Watch that they don't rip you off with the old pay the teacher LESS for overtime than for regular hours trick. They do that a lot. Nothing better than working extra hours for less money than you normally make. |
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KFTU
Joined: 28 May 2003
Location: Pohang - Korea
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| to be frank, take a job in Japan over Korea, academy's are now paying for the airfare, and depending where you are from the exchange rate doesnt warrent a salary here in korea anymore its pathetic. Negotiating a contract what a laugh (sorry) no such thing as a contract, dont expect to be able to use it when you have a dispute, be prepared for things totally different from what the contract says. this is a general rule for Korea. they will use the contract only when it suits them not you!! |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| KFTU wrote: |
| to be frank, take a job in Japan over Korea, academy's are now paying for the airfare, and depending where you are from the exchange rate doesnt warrent a salary here in korea anymore its pathetic. Negotiating a contract what a laugh (sorry) no such thing as a contract, dont expect to be able to use it when you have a dispute, be prepared for things totally different from what the contract says. this is a general rule for Korea. they will use the contract only when it suits them not you!! |
I disagree. If you weren't going to help, why post?
I would suggest you check out what other hawgwons are paying and compare. I don't know how many hours you work or what your housing situation is like, but think like this:
By staying you are saving them on airfare costs, relocation fees and possibly recruiter fees.
So if I was you I would try for 100-200k more per month. Possibly some more vacation time, and more pay for overtime. I would also ask for scheduling preferrence. So you can choose better hours than the person who just got off the plane. You might also want to increase the number of sick days you can take.
Most contracts will be the same with the other conditions, so see what you can get from your employer. Also ask for more money the first time and see what they counter offer you - or if they accept it. |
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itchy
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| KFTU wrote: |
| to be frank, take a job in Japan over Korea, academy's are now paying for the airfare, and depending where you are from the exchange rate doesnt warrent a salary here in korea anymore its pathetic. Negotiating a contract what a laugh (sorry) no such thing as a contract, dont expect to be able to use it when you have a dispute, be prepared for things totally different from what the contract says. this is a general rule for Korea. they will use the contract only when it suits them not you!! |
Yeah in Korea it's generally NHI as far as foreign ESL teachers are concerned (no humans involved). Be prepared for a lot of screaming and yelling and general abuse if you try to enforce your contract when they break it. You can't quit and they can prevent you from working anywhere else in the country, so they pretty much own you anyway. |
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itchy
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Mr. Pink"]
| KFTU wrote: |
| to be frank, take a job in Japan over Korea, academy's are now paying for the airfare, and depending where you are from the exchange rate doesnt warrent a salary here in korea anymore its pathetic. Negotiating a contract what a laugh (sorry) no such thing as a contract, dont expect to be able to use it when you have a dispute, be prepared for things totally different from what the contract says. this is a general rule for Korea. they will use the contract only when it suits them not you!! |
| Quote: |
| So if I was you I would try for 100-200k more per month. Possibly some more vacation time, and more pay for overtime. I would also ask for scheduling preferrence. So you can choose better hours than the person who just got off the plane. You might also want to increase the number of sick days you can take. |
yeah, and if you can get them to give you that then santa clause really does exist. Don't bet on it, but no harm in trying.
| Quote: |
| Most contracts will be the same with the other conditions, so see what you can get from your employer. Also ask for more money the first time and see what they counter offer you - or if they accept it. |
The only time asking for more money works is if you've already been working there and they want you to re-sign. Then the ball is in your court and you can whack it. Cold - signing a contract is a very hard place to get a salary increase. Maybe if you play them along for a bit and then act like you're bailing, but this only works if they're desperate. |
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KFTU
Joined: 28 May 2003
Location: Pohang - Korea
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I would suggest you check out what other hawgwons are paying and compare. I don't know how many hours you work or what your housing situation is like, but think like this:
By staying you are saving them on airfare costs, relocation fees and possibly recruiter fees.
So if I was you I would try for 100-200k more per month. Possibly some more vacation time, and more pay for overtime. I would also ask for scheduling preferrence. So you can choose better hours than the person who just got off the plane. You might also want to increase the number of sick days you can take.
Most contracts will be the same with the other conditions, so see what you can get from your employer. Also ask for more money the first time and see what they counter offer you - or if they accept it. |
find a hogwan that does this and you are extremely lucky!!!, basically there is to much power given to a director in that they determine the conditions even if they want to change them during your contract period and you dont like it theres nothing you can do, if you leave you cant work anywhere else, this country lacks a governing body and support for foreign workers. its disgusting |
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Squid
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Location: Sunny Anyang
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| Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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It's useful to just read the contract(s) thoroughly first, then think about querying omissions, as you'll probably find plenty.
If your selection then is well written you might look at countering what you see in it.
Be pragmatic with Korean employers, and honest about what you expect. If you get that in writing you'll be happy, sign and may even enjoy yourself working here... otherwise, well just read a few of the complaints.
just trying to be helpful.
Squid |
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Real Reality
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 12:22 am Post subject: |
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Koreans tend to view contracts as infinitely flexible and subject to further negotiation. Furthermore, the written contract is not the real contract; rather, the unwritten, oral agreement with an employer is the real contract. You should bear these factors in mind when you sign a contract.
Negotiating a Teaching Contract
A basic contract for a teaching position should include provisions for the following: salary; housing; working hours; severance pay; income tax; medical insurance; and ticket home.
Korean society is extremely hierarchical, like most East Asian societies. In Korea, the boss is the boss. Keep in mind that employees are not expected to question decisions made by their employers or to challenge their authority, especially in the presence of others.
http://www.voyage.gc.ca/main/pubs/korea-en.asp
Contracts in Korea
Of the dozens of contracts we have examined over the last month, very few are of an acceptable standard. Most Korean contracts were riddled with ambiguities, contradictions, vagueness, and provided information that breached Korean Labor Law.
http://efl-law.com/contracts.html |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 12:48 am Post subject: |
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Hmm for some reason I thought the OP was asking about re-signing not a first time contract.
So my previous comments on my previous post are directed at a re-signing negotiation...NOT a first time one.
If it is your first time, check out the average pay/hr and just take what you think is fair from a school with a big name.
I always recommend ELS/ECC as I rarely hear of people with problems. They did well for me for 3 years - absolutely no horror stories. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| KFTU wrote: |
find a hogwan that does this and you are extremely lucky!!!, basically there is to much power given to a director in that they determine the conditions even if they want to change them during your contract period and you dont like it theres nothing you can do, if you leave you cant work anywhere else, this country lacks a governing body and support for foreign workers. its disgusting |
Nonsense. If directors want to change the conditions AFTER you have signed a contract, that is what the Labor Board is for. If you have a few Korean friends to bring to the Board, so much the better. As for working elsewhere if the Labor Board finds in your favour you can get a letter of release which allows you to find alternate employment.
Too many teachers are too cowardly to do this and simply run away. They don't have the cojones to face their boss down. It is not a matter of this country lacking "a governing body" so much as it is a matter of the teachers lacking guts.
As for the OP I would go with Mr. Pink's latest advice. |
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KFTU
Joined: 28 May 2003
Location: Pohang - Korea
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| Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| wake up mate, The korean labor board dont help that much, foreigners are still exploited here, and by the time they do make a decision on a complaint months have past so you would be better of leaving anyway!!! The labor board can NOT enforce a release letter. they can only enforce labor law, but this can be counteracted if a contract is involved, then if the contract is not being adhered to its hard to prove this to the labor board, also it is expensive if you want to take it to court. So its not a matter of people lacking GUTS! its expensive and a hassle and harder than you think, so hence no support. And if you can find someone to help you then great but most koreans dont want to put themself in this situation of causing trouble so to speak. One good way to get what you want is to be as cunning as your director, use idol threats such as saying you will report them to the taxation or labor office etc, then see what happens or just refuse to work (strike) this is more effective and faster. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| KFTU wrote: |
| wake up mate, The korean labor board dont help that much, foreigners are still exploited here, and by the time they do make a decision on a complaint months have past so you would be better of leaving anyway!!! The labor board can NOT enforce a release letter. they can only enforce labor law, but this can be counteracted if a contract is involved, then if the contract is not being adhered to its hard to prove this to the labor board, also it is expensive if you want to take it to court. So its not a matter of people lacking GUTS! its expensive and a hassle and harder than you think, so hence no support. And if you can find someone to help you then great but most koreans dont want to put themself in this situation of causing trouble so to speak. One good way to get what you want is to be as cunning as your director, use idol threats such as saying you will report them to the taxation or labor office etc, then see what happens or just refuse to work (strike) this is more effective and faster. |
All of which makes this next point. Foreigners on this board would be well-advised to stop hanging around other foreigners so much and make some good Korean friends who can help you in this regard and others. Not to mention that in the process they might become a little more culturally enlightened.
idle threats will just get you fired. Same with going on strike. As for the letter of release, get it written into the contract BEFORE you sign. Then you can easily prove to the labor board that the contract isn't being upheld. |
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osangrl
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Location: osan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:35 am Post subject: |
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Canadian Girl,
Ive been on your side for quite some time now, however, i need to ask you,,,,, just where do you get off??? Yes accomodation is important, adn so is the vacation for the wedding. But as a first timer, with no experience, you really have no right to be 'negotiating' too much. As someone said above, take what they give you. Put in your year here, then maybe you can negotiate. Just because you are the #1 thing schools are looking for doesn't mean they will bend over and kiss your butt......you need to be a little more relaxed or your never going to get anything!
geesh |
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2CuteNCanadian
Joined: 10 Dec 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:31 am Post subject: |
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Jumpin' Jehosefat Osangrl...A bit harsh???Perhaps I could carv my head and serve it to you on a silver platter...
I really didn't mean to offend anyone. Sorry to have bothered you and everyone so much. I really just set out to try to enquire about as much information as I could. I thought this message board would be suitable to do just that......ask the questions.....but I guess my questions about location, school reputation, salaries, taxes, recruiters, etc., was inaporpriate. My appologies to you and everyone.
Before I leave, I feel I should set the record straight by saying that my family is very important to me. Perhaps it is not appropriate for me to ask for a specified time off as a new comer but in all honesty, I won't be signing anything without knowing that I can get home for the wedding. I completely realize that this is an unusual stipulation and therefore I'm being up front and honest with the schools. Yes it's ballzy and I don't expect them to bend over and kiss my ass for it, I just simply want to know if this is something that can be arranged. If not, it's completely understandable as they have a business to run, but I also have my priorities and I have the right to ask...
As far as accomodations go, I just want a fair shot of knowing what I'm getting...I'm not cranking or complaining about the furniture or the size or anything like that...clean and comfortable is all I'm asking for....from what I'm told....everyone says to insist upon AC....I certainly understand that I need to pay my dues, put in my year etc...I'm not fighting for money, or extra paid vacation or a palace or anything, I just want a reputable school that will provide me with decent accomodations, and time off (paid or unpaid) for my brother's wedding. The only special variable here is the wedding....I understand they don't owe it to me....but I at least owe it to my family... |
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