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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, Bucheon Bum, I would welcome a China that functioned more or less on an equal footing with the United States in world affairs -- in foreign relations, in business, and in education, to name but three areas. I mostly see China as a natural ally. So I do not fear its development and emergence as more than a mere regional power, under the right -- that is, friendly and collaborative -- circumstances.
Yet another reason I disagree with the either/or way this thread presents the issues on this. |
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adios4ca
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| b) The superpower predictions assume that China's rate of growth will be consistantly 10% for 20 years out. This has never happened for any country ever in the history of recorded economic growth. Japan's 10% economic growth lasted for the entire 60s, and then began to slowly come back to earth with 5% in the 70s and 4% in the 80s. |
maybe you were too young
i have heard the same tone 10 years ago when China had its first 10-year's of 10% growth back in the 90's - "it is impossible for any country to grow at 10% for more than 10 years, it will sure go downhill soon..."
now i have you telling me "no way to grow at 10% for more than 20 years".
maybe 10 years later, i will hear the same thing again "no way to grow at 10% for more than 30 years". 
i am not saying China will for sure to grow at 10% forever.
i am just saying "This has never happened for any country ever in the history of recorded economic growth", doesn't mean it will not happen in the future. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Vietnam is a mini-China economically speaking; well, a mini-China about 5-10 years ago. It has the potential to become the dominant country in S.East Asia. While I didn't really enjoy my time visiting the place, I have to say I was pretty damn impressed by the activity and hard work people were doing. |
Same impression here. That country, Vietnam, is going to be a wealthy one someday. I could equally feel it. (Yes, potentially, government-willing).
The people, they work hard all day long at anything and everything. You'd see ten women standing on the side of road all selling garbage that looks like weeds they picked from the road, yet they'd stand there for 12-14 hours, no problem. Just everything was like that. How hard they worked to separate $$ from the foreigners was fairly phenomenal too.
Quite a contrast to Cambodia (or just about anywhere else in Southeast Asia), where everyone is just hanging out, and the workers seem few and far between. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:01 am Post subject: |
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Peasants, Tiger Beer, are not the same as "workers."
| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| ...a contrast to Cambodia (or just about anywhere else in Southeast Asia), where everyone is just hanging out, and the workers seem few and far between. |
You have made this reference twice now. Do you believe "Southeast Asia" means Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos? If not, do you believe that Vietnam outperforms Indonesia, Singapore, and Thailand? Or that Indonesians, Singaporans, and Thais "just hang out, and the workers seem few and far between?"
I think you must be discussing "French Indochina" only, and not the Southeast Asian region, Tiger Beer.
In any case, has anyone read Time's story on Vietnam last month...?
Vietnam's Troubled Economy
Also see The Economist on Vietnam. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: ... |
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| Quote: |
| where are China's "superpower-of-the-future" universities? |
Care to name the Soviet Union's "superpower-of-the-past" universtities?
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| You have made this reference twice now. Do you believe "Southeast Asia" means Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos? If not, do you believe that Vietnam outperforms Indonesia, Singapore, and Thailand? Or that Indonesians, Singaporans, and Thais "just hang out, and the workers seem few and far between?" |
Have you been to Vietnam?
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| In any case, has anyone read Time's story on Vietnam last month...? |
The thing you repeatedly fail to acknowledge is this is a discussion of the future.
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| Yet another reason I disagree with the either/or way this thread presents the issues on this. |
Indeed. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Care to name the Soviet Union's "superpower-of-the-past" universtities? |
Not to you, Mrs. Gopher.
The Soviets boasted an excellent educational system, including first-rate area studies depts. at several locations. They particularly excelled in comparative history. Soviet scientists, moreover, not only worked in nuclear energy and space exploration, but they -- that is, Yuri Knorozov -- also deciphered the Maya glyphs.
Unfortunately, your behavior on this thread betrays either (a) complete ignorance of Soviet Russian history; or (b) more churlish, chip-on-the-shoulder oppositionism just because. As I have said before: I suspect "b." You are, after all, my nagging, internet wife and I no longer find such stubborn behavior remarkable. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher,
By hard-working, I meant the individual people of the country of Vietnam are hard-working.
I wasn't referring to each country's economy or their economic performance in Southeast Asia. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| ...the individual people of the country of Vietnam are hard-working. |
Still a very hasty, incautious, and sweeping generalization. But as you wish, Tiger Beer. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| ...the individual people of the country of Vietnam are hard-working. |
Still a very hasty, incautious, and sweeping generalization. But as you wish, Tiger Beer. |
I guess you need to go to Vietnam and see for yourself if they are or not. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| ...the individual people of the country of Vietnam are hard-working. |
Still a very hasty, incautious, and sweeping generalization. But as you wish, Tiger Beer. |
I guess you need to go to Vietnam and see for yourself if they are or not. |
When you're in Vietnam, it's apparent that they're hard workers. But when you're in America and supervising a bunch of employees, that's when you really notice and appreciate your workers who are Vietnamese.
Plus, I've had to put on nearly 20 pounds of muscle in the past year and exercise really hard to try to be as buff as the dudes at the beach in Vietnam since my favorite girlfriend lives in a town on the coast. Even though she probably sleeps with me for financial reasons, I still have a lot of pride and don't want her to be thinking of the local dudes when she's riding me or I'm riding her. It's not like competing against the chubby chumps here in America. I've really had to up my game a few notches. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:45 am Post subject: ... |
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| Quote: |
| Not to you, Mrs. Gopher. |
Oh, so the SU did have comparable unis, but you're just not gonna tell, eh?
| Quote: |
| The Soviets boasted an excellent educational system, including first-rate area studies depts. at several locations. They particularly excelled in comparative history. |
Well, their knowledge of comparative history sure helped them out. And, I mean really, comparative history? That's one step away from saying they had superb Women's Studies departments.
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| Soviet scientists, moreover, not only worked in nuclear energy and space exploration, but they -- that is, Yuri Knorozov -- also deciphered the Maya glyphs. |
OK, so we've now lowered the bar from having a local MIT to other accomplishments. It's worth considering how many Chinese are currently in America teaching at our most prestigious universities, working in our labs, and playing a huge part in "our" innovation.
And then there's this to consider:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20071216/news_1n16brain.html
| Quote: |
| Unfortunately, your behavior on this thread betrays either (a) complete ignorance of Soviet Russian history; or (b) more churlish, chip-on-the-shoulder oppositionism just because. As I have said before: I suspect "b." You are, after all, my nagging, internet wife and I no longer find such stubborn behavior remarkable. |
Always good to get that bit out of the way.
Moving on, one might also look at the number of western universities that have partnered with Chinese universities and established programs there:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/HB18Cb05.html
It's incautious to expect China to rise in the same manner the US or other countries did.
Furthermore, issues of superpower status also depend on what's happening to the competition. If the dollor is replaced for a basket of currencies to serve as the world's reserve, that will be a turning point. Grandpa Reagan's highly romanticized slaying of the Soviets via deficit spending (and W's extremely incautious decision to resume such behavior) may ultimately be a pivotal factor in the US losing its economic edge.
Finally, Vietnam is a poor country. So is China.  |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: ... |
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Nowhere Man wrote:
Oh, so the SU did have comparable unis, but you're just not gonna tell, eh?
Yep. |
Really? Crap. I guess I'm just gonna hafta edumacate myself, drive away that dark cloud of ingorance about Soviet universities that hangs over my head.
Pfew, where to start? Well, the collapse of the SU doesn't necessarily mean that these CalTech/MIT-rivaling entities simply bit the dust.
So, a look around puts Moscow State at 147 in the global rankings. Not too bad, but hardly up with CalTech and MIT in the top 10
http://www.webometrics.info/top100_europe.asp?country=ru
And where's the next Russian university?
St. Petersburg State- 731
To be fair, a different site had MSU at 67 in 2005:
http://www.arwu.org/rank/2005/ARWU2005_Top100.htm
but that still doesn't really put it up there, and the competition as you go higher on such lists becomes far more intense.
Of course, all of these rankings really came into their own after the demise of the Soviet Union, so perhaps there are some striking little anecdotes that I'm not aware of that would indicate that a university in the Soviet Union achieved the caliber being suggested.
I suppose you could cite the Soviet space program as an accomplishment, but they never got beyond sending people up in rockets and Mir was pretty scary. Tom Clancy offers similarly scary descriptions of the state the Soviet navy was in once Westerners actually got the opportunity to inspect their fleets up close.
So, what are we left with? Area studies? Not sure where there's handy info about that, but I'm sure they were rockin' the house when it came to comparative history.
But hey! What's this? Global rankings of Natural Sciences at universities?
http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2007/subject_rankings/natural_sciences/
Hmm. Peking University is at 15, just behind UCLA and ahead of Columbia. Still not up to CalTech's 6 or MIT's 2, but nothing to sneeze at, especially when trying to write off engineers.
http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2007/overall_rankings/top_400_universities/
2 in the top 100, 5 if you count Hong Kong.
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Nowhere Man wrote:
OK, so we've now lowered the bar from having a local MIT to other accomplishments.
No, "we" have not. |
Right, then what was all that about Maya glyphs? Just some color commentary?
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Nowhere Man wrote:
And then there's this to consider...
Unlike you, Nowhere Man, I barely read your posts anymore. Mostly just scroll through them -- let alone open any links you post. You see, I already know what most of them will say. |
That's too bad, because I always find your posts surprising. I can never quite predict if you will be tooting the the USA's horn or belittling its competitors. Or belittling criticism of the USA or heaping it on someplace else. You always keep me guessing.
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Nowhere Man wrote:
one might also look at the number of western universities that have partnered with Chinese universities and established programs there...
You are of course free to do whatever you please. Good luck with whatever position -- and it is never clear, other than to contradict me -- may be here. |
Well, the point here would be that having the actual universities is a bit secondary to people getting the education from them.
But, you're right. I don't really think China has a snowball's chance in hockey sticks of competing with the USA, my uncle actually graduated magna cum laude from Moscow State University (the best university in the world), and I'm just here to contradict you. |
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reimund
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:13 am Post subject: |
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China has potential, but I think it's unlikely the country will reach it anytime soon.
The advantage America has over China is that it's still a relatively new country, founded on more, I suppose, "modern" ideals. China's social and political problems stem back from habits and ideologies that are hundreds, perhaps even thousands of years old. It's hard to undo.
Sure, one could argue that America was founded on Puritanism, or Judao-Christian ideals, but really, Puritanism hasn't delved into politics and the finer points in human relationships as thoroughly as Confucianism has. |
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