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greedy_bones
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Location: not quite sure anymore
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 Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:11 am Post subject: |
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I'd have to say that the club should be able to exclude whomever they choose.
I think some of the private business rights issues are a bit gray, but I'm mostly for the rights of the private business owners.
However, more than simple ethics is at play concerning discrimination and regulation. Today, discrimination laws aren't as necessary as they once were.
In the 1960's a considerably larger portion of the businesses would have turned away African Americans/Canadians etc... Today, however, most of the population would find it objectionable to exclude people based on race or faith and would not patronize a business that does. So, if businesses chose to discriminate against particular client�le, it would be a bad choice. I don't think government involvement is necessary.
There are some situations where this would be less clear, however. If supermarkets, landlords, power companies or other providers of necessities exclude, than this causes a much bigger problem. If I can't enter my local supermarket to buy food, I may have to travel another 10 miles or so to get food. Nightclubs, however, are not a necessity. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| Well, in Alberta some black person was barred from entering a night club, and he sued. Should establishments have the right to bar black people, because they are private concerns? You could argue that they are private clubs. That's what some tried to argue in the past, but the courts disagreed, and I disagree that people still wouldn't try to bar people of certain races or whatever from entering. They just know they can't do that. It also happened somewhere in Montreal. Another person had to sue. I don't think banning someone for being too skinny or overweight, black, or Chinese or whatever is okay. |
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greedy_bones
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Location: not quite sure anymore
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| People, for the most part should be able to sell to whomever they choose. If a bar owner dislikes black people, why should he have to sell drinks to black people? If I want to own a business that serves only one type of person, why shouldn't I be able to? Should a clothing company that doesn't make plus sizes be sued for discriminating against overweight people? |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| People, for the most part should be able to sell to whomever they choose. If a bar owner dislikes black people, why should he have to sell drinks to black people? If I want to own a business that serves only one type of person, why shouldn't I be able to? Should a clothing company that doesn't make plus sizes be sued for discriminating against overweight people? |
To answer your question directly. NO.
This is not just a civil rights question or a question of creating a tolerant and civil society, it is also a question of having an economic system that functions effectively and to the benefit of the many.
When you operate a business, you are immediately in the "public" realm. As far as ownership goes, you own it but you also make a social contract with society. Part of that implied contract is that you give equal and fair access as accords the laws of the "public" realm.
This is not communist - this is plainly "civilization" and is as old as people forming relationships and exchanging goods. It is not just "fair" but it is efficient.
Imagine if airlines said only Christians could fly on their airlines?
Imagine if hair salons only took people who had short untroublesome hair (and thus could make a quicker profit margin).
Imagine if only left handed people could buy fruit (because they are much less probable to have used their left hand in wiping themselves)
Imagine if.....
You can sell your own private property to whoever you wish. What you sell in a bar is not your own private property -- it is bought and sold for public consumption. Ergo, you are compelled to operate under constraints. That's part of the bargain.
Now you could get sneaky like Gopher and all his slick Willy neocon friends would (cheat but don't get caught , lobby with millions but make it look legit etc.....) but dirt is dirt is dirt....no two ways about it.
The fallacy and myth of American "i can do anything I wantism" still pervades America but reality in how it operates has long suggested (rightly) otherwise...
Laws are there to create a smoothly functioning society when there is no better alternative. I won't address the whole enlightened arguement which supports non discrimination in the public marketplace.
DD |
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nateium
Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
To answer your question directly. NO.
having an economic system that functions effectively and to the benefit of the many. |
What???
The point of a business is to make money, not to benefit the greatest number of people. However, when people benefit from a business, they usually spend more money. The function of government is to protect the people, sometimes from being harmed by businesses. The best economic system is one where the most wealth is being created. If you don't believe that, it's a topic for another thread.
Clubs don't reject some people because they are mean, they do it because they believe they can make more money that way.
| Quote: |
| Imagine if airlines said only Christians could fly on their airlines? |
Don't forget we have laws against that. It'd be fine though to call it "Christian airlines" or "Jesus express," have a service, play Jars of Clay, and have all the other associated nauseating activities.
Christians tend to go for that kind of thing. Great business idea! No problem because another Jewish or Muslim Airline would pop into play.
| Quote: |
Imagine if hair salons only took people who had short untroublesome hair (and thus could make a quicker profit margin).
Imagine if only left handed people could buy fruit (because they are much less probable to have used their left hand in wiping themselves)
Imagine if..... |
Are you missing the idea of demand? If people wanted hair longer they would just go to another salon providing that service. The"short hair"salon and "long hair" salon would compete. Competition often benefits the consumer in terms of savings and choice
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| You can sell your own private property to whoever you wish. What you sell in a bar is not your own private property -- it is bought and sold for public consumption. Ergo, you are compelled to operate under constraints. That's part of the bargain. |
What are you talking about? Whatever you buy for your bar is yours. You can do what you want with it until the moment you sell it. The bar is also yours, and your own private property. It may be licensed for public use, and have a slightly different set of "constraints" than your family plot of land, but the principle is still the same. Your house and yard also have some constraints. |
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nateium
Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| They should just let the men in the club decide what they want instead of insisting they date women of a certain size. That's dumb. |
I don't think so. Clubs attract customers by providing a specialty/novelty/atmosphere where people can choose to be around a similar group of people. Punk clubs attract punks, hippie bars attract hippies, etc. and the interior is set to match. Rich guys want a swanky atmosphere where they can meet beautiful women. No choice or option is being taken from the individual in these circumstances, they are being CREATED! You can still date women of any size in a different bar! Club competition!
What you are saying is similar to saying "we shouldn't have bakerys, a meet market, or an organic food store, we should only allow supermarkets!" In a club, the main attraction is the other customers. No matter how great the DJ or drink are, if the place is full of people you don't want to be around, there's no point in staying.
How boring would it be if every club had the same crowd! And for the record, if I was a multi-millionaire, I'd want to go someplace where the ladies look like models, and not like I'd just walked into wallmart. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| greedy_bones wrote: |
| People, for the most part should be able to sell to whomever they choose. If a bar owner dislikes black people, why should he have to sell drinks to black people? If I want to own a business that serves only one type of person, why shouldn't I be able to? |
And if the owner of the only restaurant in town doesn't like Black people?
How about the owner of the only feed mill?
The owner of the local power company?
Discriminating against someone because of race/religion/ethnicy/age is illegal in Canada - and I support that. |
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greedy_bones
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Location: not quite sure anymore
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| greedy_bones wrote: |
| People, for the most part should be able to sell to whomever they choose. If a bar owner dislikes black people, why should he have to sell drinks to black people? If I want to own a business that serves only one type of person, why shouldn't I be able to? |
And if the owner of the only restaurant in town doesn't like Black people?
How about the owner of the only feed mill?
The owner of the local power company?
Discriminating against someone because of race/religion/ethnicy/age is illegal in Canada - and I support that. |
| greedy_bones wrote: |
| There are some situations where this would be less clear, however. If supermarkets, landlords, power companies or other providers of necessities exclude, than this causes a much bigger problem. If I can't enter my local supermarket to buy food, I may have to travel another 10 miles or so to get food. Nightclubs, however, are not a necessity. |
Once again, I think it depends on the situation. Things like hair salons, bars, and comic book stores are not a necessity. It would suck to be unable to go to any club, but if the one club in town is a racist one, I wouldn't want to go there anyways. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:08 am Post subject: |
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So, only institutions/businesses that you (or someone) deem as a necessity, should not be allowed to discriminate?
That sounds more convoluted than the actual laws against discrimination. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| Once again, I think it depends on the situation. |
Ummmm...no, it doesn't. A business is either in business to serve the public or it isn't. It isn't in business to serve that portion of the public whose skin color, hair texture, height, weight, political views, mother's maiden name etc it agrees with.
It's fairly black and white. Serve all or serve none.
I do think people should be able to buy a bigot's license that says, "We only serve X", but this should be painted on the front of the building and mentioned in every newspaper ad: We are bigots and don't serve X. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:58 am Post subject: |
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I dunno some of those girls might have been fire hazards. Also in Jersey many of the buildings are old and have weak floorboards. But hey these ones don't look too bad.
http://imgslop.com/jersey_girls.jpg |
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crusher_of_heads
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Location: kimbop and kimchi for kimberly!!!!
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| Making it a public health issue, let's hope buffets follow the nightclub's noble example! |
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greedy_bones
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Location: not quite sure anymore
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
So, only institutions/businesses that you (or someone) deem as a necessity, should not be allowed to discriminate?
That sounds more convoluted than the actual laws against discrimination. |
Yes, it's convoluted. Not all issues are black and white. Let's take the USA's first and second amendment for example. You have the freedom of speech, press and religion, but you don't have the right to yell "Fire!!!" in a crowded movie theater. You have the right to bare arms, but there are many restrictions which serve to protect the public.
Ideally, businesses should serve the people they choose without the interference of government. However, to protect those who require certain services, government needs to step in to insure that everyone has access to necessities.
It's a little complex, but not that complex. Entertainment is not a necessity; food, gas, housing, medical care and utilities are. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Let's face it that barring women from a night club, because they are "fat" involves sexism and sanctions a certain kind of prejudice known as chauvinism and barring people because of their race or weight is not something that a society should tolerate. It's illegal in Canada, and it is illegal in the U.S., and I suspect the majority of North Americans object to such prejudice. Establishments are subject to laws to the land whether it deals with safety, alcohol sales, and discrimination against people. |
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nickq61
Joined: 12 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| aarontendo wrote: |
| Justin Hale wrote: |
| Elsewhere in the UK, however, a "no fat women" policy would be economic suicide. |
Try coming to my country sometime heh, it might make ya miss those UK gals sir  |
I doubt it, buddy! (An average of 240 women a day are arrested for violent offences in England and Wales, according to recent figures from the Ministry of Justice....) |
Even worse, " An average of 4.7 fat muggles per day are the victims of malicious hexes and spells, according to a report released by the Ministry of Magic. "
www.TheDailyProphet.com
edit: link's dead, sorry |
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