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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Captain Corea, with all due respect, the majority of Korean teenagers in 2001 said the country has too much corruption. I have had so many friends and acquaintances who have had problems. And as far as other Asians, I do know there was a report about abuses in the Korean Herald, the Canadian and American embassies warn people about working as teachers in the country. It doesn't mean the majority are dishonest, but you can't even compare it to Canada. You take getting paid on time for granted in Canada. I don't over here and for good reason. I do like Korea and Koreans, but let's be honest like the Canadian Embassy is about this. |
While I agree that there is corruption in Korea, I thought the issue at hand was whether people got paid or not.
I'm not sure that a survey of teen in Korea will really give an accurate assessment of that.
I'd much rather see a survey of working age people asking them if they've ever been stuffed on a paycheck. (I think it'd actually be an interesting survey).
((BTW, thanks for being civil in your post to me - far too often people are not around here)) |
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stevieg4ever
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:20 am Post subject: |
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a genuine apology to CaptainCorea I have indeed misquoted him. If there was a wally of the day then it would indeed be mysef: I am not going to make excuses and I am big enough to step up and say I am wrong when I am.
Sorry Cap... |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:31 am Post subject: |
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| stevieg4ever wrote: |
a genuine apology to CaptainCorea I have indeed misquoted him. If there was a wally of the day then it would indeed be mysef: I am not going to make excuses and I am big enough to step up and say I am wrong when I am.
Sorry Cap... |
Nah man, that's cool of you to correct it.
All is good - enjoy your long weekend.  |
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kimchi_pizza
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Location: "Get back on the bus! Here it comes!"
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| jdog2050 wrote: |
| Unposter wrote: |
First off, alot of American Corporate Execs get slaps on the wrist. Justice is relative to economic status the world round. It is just that middle class America is taught it is wrong. So, we have a sense that it is wrong. Americans still break the laws at alarming rates.
Second of all, American employers were very similar to Korean employers before the rise of labor unions and the laws that powrful labor unions and their political supporters were able to push through Congress. You can complain all you want about Korean labor unions but man this country needs them considering what they have to put up with with Management.
Third of all, Korea has a very hierarchical culture and power relations are very important. Too often Korean managers think they have to demonstrate their power over YOU, otherwise you won't respect them and follow them. Especially, as many FTs use their ability to quit or not do their job well to dominate their relationship with their boss. Korea has a long standing tradition of antagonism between labor and management and Hakwons have just as much problems if not worse. Your ability to play office politics is critical in Korea.
Fourth, honesty is just not prized in Korean society except by some very serious religious types. In the schools, cheating is rarely punnished and amongst peers it is prized. Throughout society little white lies not to loose face to enouraging unnecessary surgeries, to people bribing their way into their jobs, we find a prevelance of dishonesty. As I like to say, in Korea, you pretty much never have to worry about being mugged or have some wepon put to your face and have money demanded but you do have to worry about being outsmarted out of your money. That is the Korean prefered method of theft.
Hakwons are very similar to used car lots and hakwon bosses and teachers are in many ways similar to used car salesmen. Whoever put forth that analogy earlier was onto something.
Korea is a grand adventure. It is often the law of the jungle out there. It is part of what makes Korea interesting to me as well as dangerous. Who does not want the security of knowing that they will be paid on time? But, few hakwon teachers have that comfort. It is a large part of the adventure of Korea. There are plenty of people who know how to play the game and make out like bandits. People who play by the rules are often though certainly not always left behind. One of the reasons many Koreans think we make a bundle is they assume we are as corrupt as everyone else in Korea. I have had too many adult students detail the endemic corruption of their businesses to believe otherwise.
I really do not believe that Korea is for the feint of heart. It may change. And, it maybe the English education industry that leads that change. But, for the momment, I would say becareful out there. Korea is not an easy place to work, especially as an English teacher. |
Post of the century. Someone sticky this. |
That was such a damn good post I just had ta bump it...well written and thought out Unposter. A must read for newbies. And if ya encounter any problems of any kind all I can add is stay cool, use good common sense and judgement and ask others, Koreans and expats, for opinions and advice, specially those at the 3-year-mark and over. |
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Insidejohnmalkovich
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Location: Pusan
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Why are foreign teachers so effing lazy? |
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Young FRANKenstein
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Insidejohnmalkovich wrote: |
| Why are foreign teachers so effing lazy? |
Speak for yourself, roundeye. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Captain Corea, with all due respect, the majority of Korean teenagers in 2001 said the country has too much corruption. I have had so many friends and acquaintances who have had problems. And as far as other Asians, I do know there was a report about abuses in the Korean Herald, the Canadian and American embassies warn people about working as teachers in the country. It doesn't mean the majority are dishonest, but you can't even compare it to Canada. You take getting paid on time for granted in Canada. I don't over here and for good reason. I do like Korea and Koreans, but let's be honest like the Canadian Embassy is about this. |
While I agree that there is corruption in Korea, I thought the issue at hand was whether people got paid or not.
I'm not sure that a survey of teen in Korea will really give an accurate assessment of that.
I'd much rather see a survey of working age people asking them if they've ever been stuffed on a paycheck. (I think it'd actually be an interesting survey).
((BTW, thanks for being civil in your post to me - far too often people are not around here)) |
Well, I personally never had a problem getting paid on time, Captain Corea. However, I did get cheated on pension and taxes. I also know a friend who worked for a public school in Ilsan, and it appears that his school had co-workers who cheated him financially, and the principal was clueless. That's another example. I asked a female friend about a girl in Suwon, because I was thinking of moving there, and she told me the girl left, because she wasn't being paid.
A friend of mine who works in the Asan/Cheonan area worked with a girl who was contracted to work for her school, and she wasn't getting paid. A friend of mine in Ilsan who used to work for a hagwon got paid late all the time and his was boss cheating on taxes, pension, had the improper visa. A female friend in Daejeon complains that she gets paid late all the time. With all these examples of people I know in Korea, Captain, from different parts of the country, it is safe to say corruption is quite common over here. I didn't have so many friends tell me such stories in the U.S. or Canada. Also, don't forget those E-Land corporation workers who went on strike, because they didn't get paid. Many employers in Korea believe that employers should live and die for them, so to speak.
Now, I didn't say the majority think that way. However, too many do.
Of course, I can speak to you respectfully, because I don't want to dump my insecurities on someone, so I can feel better about myself. You are a decent guy, and there are good things about Korea, and you like this country. Like many veterans, I think Korea is okay. We see the good, we see the bad, and we know there are good employers out there, but we know can easily get cheated over here. I know few people who haven't at one point in Korea, to be honest even if they are not at this juncture. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Captain Corea, with all due respect, the majority of Korean teenagers in 2001 said the country has too much corruption. I have had so many friends and acquaintances who have had problems. And as far as other Asians, I do know there was a report about abuses in the Korean Herald, the Canadian and American embassies warn people about working as teachers in the country. It doesn't mean the majority are dishonest, but you can't even compare it to Canada. You take getting paid on time for granted in Canada. I don't over here and for good reason. I do like Korea and Koreans, but let's be honest like the Canadian Embassy is about this. |
While I agree that there is corruption in Korea, I thought the issue at hand was whether people got paid or not.
I'm not sure that a survey of teen in Korea will really give an accurate assessment of that.
I'd much rather see a survey of working age people asking them if they've ever been stuffed on a paycheck. (I think it'd actually be an interesting survey).
((BTW, thanks for being civil in your post to me - far too often people are not around here)) |
Well, I personally never had a problem getting paid on time, Captain Corea. However, I did get cheated on pension and taxes. I also know a friend who worked for a public school in Ilsan, and it appears that his school had co-workers who cheated him financially, and the principal was clueless. That's another example. I asked a female friend about a girl in Suwon, because I was thinking of moving there, and she told me the girl left, because she wasn't being paid.
A friend of mine who works in the Asan/Cheonan area worked with a girl who was contracted to work for her school, and she wasn't getting paid. A friend of mine in Ilsan who used to work for a hagwon got paid late all the time and his was boss cheating on taxes, pension, had the improper visa. A female friend in Daejeon complains that she gets paid late all the time. With all these examples of people I know in Korea, Captain, from different parts of the country, it is safe to say corruption is quite common over here. I didn't have so many friends tell me such stories in the U.S. or Canada. Also, don't forget those E-Land corporation workers who went on strike, because they didn't get paid. Many employers in Korea believe that employers should live and die for them, so to speak.
Now, I didn't say the majority think that way. However, too many do.
Of course, I can speak to you respectfully, because I don't want to dump my insecurities on someone, so I can feel better about myself. You are a decent guy, and there are good things about Korea, and you like this country. Like many veterans, I think Korea is okay. We see the good, we see the bad, and we know there are good employers out there, but we know can easily get cheated over here. I know few people who haven't at one point in Korea, to be honest even if they are not at this juncture. |
Quick question (but I'm pretty sure I know the answer, man), were all of your friends working in the ESL industry?
Because most of the people I talk to in a given day do not. They work in Law, Insurance, ect... and rarely have problems.
Could it be that the ESL industry is the problem, and not the Korean psyche?
Edit: Those Eland workers did not go on stike because of lack of pay. They went on strike because the Noh administration had changed the policies regarding Temporary Contract workers and E-Land was not renewing their contracts. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Korea, to be honest even if they are not at this juncture. |
Quick question (but I'm pretty sure I know the answer, man), were all of your friends working in the ESL industry?
Because most of the people I talk to in a given day do not. They work in Law, Insurance, ect... and rarely have problems.
Could it be that the ESL industry is the problem, and not the Korean psyche?
Edit: Those Eland workers did not go on stike because of lack of pay. They went on strike because the Noh administration had changed the policies regarding Temporary Contract workers and E-Land was not renewing their contracts.[/quote]
CaptainKorea, you can't dismiss this as simply an industry problem and not having to do with culture. Japan has ESL teachers and an ESL industry and so does Europe and these problems are not so common.
Again, the Korean Herald mentioned foreign nationals who were not in the ESL industry who had problems including someone who got hit in the face. I disagree that it relates only to the ESL industry. There was an article with Thais complaining about the use of Thais. Many Phillipinos do not like dealing with Korea and Koreans, because many of them get exploited horribly. One of my friend is dating a Phillipino. His employer hit him several times. He has been demeaned. He has worked 22 hour shifts before. Perhaps, you just don't want to see the serious mistreatment of foreigners in this country. I believe the U.N. talked about discrimination in Korea for many good reasons. It is not just about the ESL industry, I am afraid. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:20 am Post subject: |
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I would propose that it has more to do with the type of employment, than strickly an 'ESL thing'.
The people that I've heard of being screwed over are usually in three fields, ESL, Entertainment and 3D (not the graphics kind).
While the ones I know that have had no problems are working here as legal consultants, designers, and other types of professionals.
If I work for XYZ Hogwon owned by Mr Kim... and he shafts me, it's bad, but I don't think many would be surprised (Koreans and foreigners alike).
If I work as a designer in Samsung engineering and they don't give me my final paycheck... I think most people (Koreans and foreigners alike) would be surprised by it.
Get where I'm going? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
I would propose that it has more to do with the type of employment, than strickly an 'ESL thing'.
The people that I've heard of being screwed over are usually in three fields, ESL, Entertainment and 3D (not the graphics kind).
While the ones I know that have had no problems are working here as legal consultants, designers, and other types of professionals.
If I work for XYZ Hogwon owned by Mr Kim... and he shafts me, it's bad, but I don't think many would be surprised (Koreans and foreigners alike).
If I work as a designer in Samsung engineering and they don't give me my final paycheck... I think most people (Koreans and foreigners alike) would be surprised by it.
Get where I'm going? |
You have a point that it depends on the industry. However, it still depends on the culture, because other countries have an ESL industry. We can't escape cultural behavior connected to corruption in the hagwon industry. You said it occurs in more than one industry. You also do know there is a lot of government corruption. We are dealing with corruption in general, not just not getting paid. People often don't get paid, because the Korean Government is not doing its job, and the government officials often don't care about foreigners.
Let's face it. The Chinese Government is going after Korean bosses who shut down and skipped down without paying their Chinese workers. This happens all the time in the Phillipines. Samsung is an MNC with branches all over the world. It is not so Korean in many ways. Samsung has adopted many Western corporate values, rather than Korean ones. The same applies to many major Japanese companies. In our countries we are litigious, people can get sued, people take action against corruption. We have strong consumer and worker rights. They just don't here. You also know about the university professor who plagiarized from his own students. There is that mentality in Korea amongst many people that you should do whatever to get ahead and then confess in church and act like you are a good Christian or what have you. |
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aka Dave
Joined: 02 May 2008
Location: Down by the river
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| Insidejohnmalkovich wrote: |
| Why are foreign teachers so effing lazy? |
Let me tell you something nimod. I teach a summer writing workshop, at a Univ. and I don't even know I if I'm getting paid for it.
I'm *required* to correct TWO essays per class and then photocopy those essays and use them as model essays for the class.
I have 12 students and I require them to write 2 essays per class session and one re-write from the previous session.
And I do *not* just correct 2 essays per class as my requirement, I correct 24 plus 12 re-writes which comes to 36 essays corrected. For every hour of class time I spend 6 to 8 hours correcting (you can see a model essay on the job forum I posted). No one pays for this time I spend trying to untangle torturous Korean English sentences. And really, unless you've corrected a lot of Korean English essays, you don't know how frustrating it can be.
But get this. My students were having trouble making progress with their essays, so they wanted a "model" essay. I gave them numerous links on the web for model essays.
NO! They wanted essays on the EXACT topics that we were covering each week. So guess what? They wanted ME to write them model essays. Essentially they gave me 숙 제. So now, each class, I don't just correct 36 essays a class, I write one as well. If you want I'll post em here.
I could slap 2 corrections together in 10 minutes and just BS my way through the class. F that. I want my students to pass the teacher exam, the pass rate is less than 10 percent.
My students appreciate and respect the work I put in (they really, really do). But I get the feeling some people in the weygook (and Korean) community at large think we're here just to goof off. That's not the case for all of us. |
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Young FRANKenstein
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Japan has ESL teachers and an ESL industry and so does Europe and these problems are not so common. |
I can't speak for Europe as I haven't worked in ESL there, but in Japan the problems are just as common there as here. The difference though is that in Japan there is a monster of a teachers' union to go to bat for you and fight the bastards who try to get you down. If you get screwed in Japan, most of the time the fight goes quickly to your advantage. Here, if you are one of the lucky ones to have the laws enforced, you will have a long wait in general to see results. |
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Join Me
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
I would propose that it has more to do with the type of employment, than strickly an 'ESL thing'.
The people that I've heard of being screwed over are usually in three fields, ESL, Entertainment and 3D (not the graphics kind).
While the ones I know that have had no problems are working here as legal consultants, designers, and other types of professionals.
If I work for XYZ Hogwon owned by Mr Kim... and he shafts me, it's bad, but I don't think many would be surprised (Koreans and foreigners alike).
If I work as a designer in Samsung engineering and they don't give me my final paycheck... I think most people (Koreans and foreigners alike) would be surprised by it.
Get where I'm going? |
Captain Korea,
The thing about apologists like you is that you are usually so ignorant of the subject (Korea) that you so often defend (based on your emotions) that you can't even see the pink elephant standing in the middle of the forest.
The CEO of Samsung may not steal from his employees (directly) like the local hawgwan owner but he was tried and CONVICTED of stealing from each and every Korean. In case you can't reason this out for yourself...tax dollars belong to the state and thus the people. When you are convicted of tax evasion, as Lee Kun-Hee was, your crime is stealing from the people. And no, the fact that a corrupt court system decides you don't have to serve a day of your sentence does not remove the burden of your crimes...neither will the pardon that he will eventually receive from President Lee or the next President of Korea.
http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2221850/samsung-boss-convicted-tax
Next time you may want to pick a little better example to make your point.
And to be honest with you I don't think what Lee Kun-Hee did really surprised many Koreans either. Its become all to predictable here. |
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philipjames
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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No question about it. In my experience on this earth, Korean employers are without doubt the most dishonest and unethical I've ever encountered.
The shady, craftily-word contracts are our first encounter with this phenomenon. Then we start work and we quickly realize that the shady contracts are just the thin edge of a culture that is based on dishonesty and bad faith.
Korea, you've a long way to go before you can truly be considered a respectable member of the international community. |
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