Korean Job Discussion Forums

[lguscott]

I'm curious, do people look at blacklists anymore? Right now I'm having major problems with my employer and I want to warn others about them. But when I searched for blacklists, only one came up and it hasn't been updated since 2005. Anyone know of a more up to date one?

[Boodleheimer]

because of bizarre libel laws, i'm not sure there is a good one. i'd like to warn people away from a place as well.

[CPT]

I'd also like to find an up to date one, as I'm doing my job hunt right now. Any information about a potential school is useful.

How do you guys rate blacklists and other posts online against talking to current foreign teachers at the school?

I would take the teacher's word for it, especially when the posts you are looking at are from 2003-2005. Take the complaint into consideration though.

For what it's worth, my last job was on a blacklist and it was fine.

[Skippy]

Why do the blacklists always out of date. Simple laziness and numbers.

Numbers. You would think that every ESL teacher in Korea would check out eslcafe regularly. I have heard some people guess that maybe 10 percent of people who come to Korea check out eslcafe. And of the 10 percent maybe another 10 would be regulars. So out of a hundred people only 1 would be enough on here to comment. But what has that got to do with blacklists. This would be the first place people who look for about lists. And if only 1 ourt of hundred is willing to check eslcafe. 10 percent of those kind of people will likely post something about their schools. And those willing to post are only willing to post if their school sucks.

Laziness. So many time have we seen people do a drive by post on ESLcafe scream "DO NOT WORK AT *********". If you are lucky you get a ok posting of one or two paragraphs. But usually you get a spelling error and grammatical filled rambling". People ask for more details and all they get is silence or defensive postings. The ironic part is those people put the effort into complain. Imagine how many other who had a bad time did not post something.

I remember the site school watch (http://www.englishschoolwatch.org/)it failed because of two reasons. Once again laziness. The site asked for a whole bunch of info before posting about the school. Which is good allows for a most intelligenct post. But most people are to lazy to post or do the work. Two you had to register and pay (I thinK) which people did not really want to do. Most wanted to google and go.

My advice is do the work yourself. I know I know it is a bad word but work is needed. Get some phone numbers and emails to past and present teachers and get cracking. Ask questions like from the the FAQ forum http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=105423

[Milwaukiedave]

Skippy is right on the money. Do your homework before you sign. Ask questions, talk to teachers. If you have a feeling something is fishy, then run (don't walk) away from it.

Blacklists have to be taken with a grain of salt. You may or may not be getting the whole story.

[DongtanTony]

Skippy must be Korean.

I usually don't flame other posters...but complaining about grammar while making a good dozen mistakes leaves me a bit suspicious. And, if Skippy isn't Korean, then god help his/her students.

Does he/she make some valid points? Sure.

[Skippy]

Sorry for the spelling and grammar mistakes.

I am at a PC bang and generally type with keyboards I am not used too.

Also, I rarely do a final quick once over to check mistakes. I like make my post nice and quick if I can.

Anyways what did I say to piss you off. I gave some sound advice of why most blacklists are rarely updated. Did I come off sounding like an apologist or mean.

Also, not Korean.

[Tobias]

The laziness needs to stop. Blacklists are more important than ever, given it's so damn hard (read expensive) to change jobs here now.

Let's put our heads together and see if we can come up with a credible list that's constantly updated. Wait. What am I thinking? This is TESOL, a "me first/*beep* everybody else" industry.

[Skippy]

Actually I had one idea that might help is journalism. We have some many people who want to be journalists. They want that to find that interesting story. Heck each esl teacher has an interesting story. Go interview some teachers about their schools.

I was tempted to do that. Did not really want be a journo but it would be interesting getting info about some of the schools out there. Though just go out there and talk to people. Post on a site and if people wanted to check out they had to talk about their own school or post something up themselves..

It is simple. Find a friend or stranger too and interview them. Ask questions about their school, owners, co-teacher, students, community makeup, etc Write up a basic info sheet and a few paragraphs about the school. Include things like what problems or aggravations you had. This also allows for a third party to write a less biased report.

This would be a good idea for a blog - BlackBlog. Every week two or three schools are presented. People can summit to the blog owner he can post up other written. Then allow people to debate what they know.

Also one other point about blacklists and thier lack of information is I did not mention before is censorship. I have heard people complain that here at Dave's they will take down a post if the school complains(loudly or legally). Other reasons for taking down a post is if said school pays for job listings on the Job Board. Rule of business #34 - Do not piss off your customers.

Also - self-censorship. People like the anonymity of the Internet. People will rarely post their own names and even what school they work at. Posters want their privacy. Or people are worried about the consequences if they post something. People do not want to get fired for bad mouthing a school over a minor dispute.

Imagine what would happen if a Daves or Facebook allowed that the school you worked at was beside each post you put. People could find somebody who worked at that school and just read their post and find out some details.

Hmm, I might do that.

[Tobias]

I like your idea. Blackblog.

Let me bounce this idea off you guys. When a school complains about a bad testimony, don't remove the message about that school completely. Simply edit it by replacing its text with the words "censored" or "content removed by request". That'd send up enough of a red flag to allow us to make informed decisions about said outfit.

A blackblog or blacklist must balance the concerns of the schools with the public's right to know about those schools. And if I'm flying all the way from the States for a job here, and potentially paying a grand or more out of my own pocket on the trip back home if it goes south, I'd want to know the objective answers to some hard questions of any employer I'm interested in here in our beloved SK.

[Ruraljuror]

I like your idea of a blackblog. I find hagwon horror stories to be tremendously entertaining as well as informative, so I would most definitely check it daily. If you post one or two interviews a day, in a few months you would have a decent archive of interviews.

I like that it's not dependent on user generated content (I've seen plenty of blacklists die because the hundreds of posts that the guy who made it was expecting never materialized) but the downside there is it's going to be a lot of work for you.

But if you are willing to spend all of that time working on it for free, I would definitely be willing to enjoy the content or be interviewed.

[i4NI]

As I mentioned in a other threads, i'm trying to launch a black list site. However I'm trying to find the right open source software that will let people post the place, location, owner and a description of the school, which anyone can edit like a wiki, then followed by people's experience with that place and a rating system. I also want to sort by city, gu, name, etc so it's highly organized.

This should be as legal as rating a book or cd no? If the school wants me to take it down I don't have to right? Especially the difference in American and Korean laws. Also if my server is in America it should follow American laws no?

If anyone is interested in helping out let me know.

EDIT: I messed around with Pligg, but it seems way too dry. Here is my test site:
http://www.bluesoju.com/test/

feel free to do whatever to test it out and post goofy stuff as I will probably delete it anyways. I'm looking for a more flexible site. Next I will try Drupal and Joomla.

[ddeubel]

i4Ni

I was talking to some people about this the other day....I'd love to work together to get something going and have some ideas of my own. Was intending on starting it in Sept. when I have some more time...

I don't think a LMS is the way to go. But there are many applications out there but I think because of the nature of the beast, best to host yourself and build yourself. I'd gladly host on a server and promote on EFL Classroom .

But I don't think a "blacklist" is needed or the approach to take. It should be a "Rate your Job" site. Anonymous posting for each position. This would work to make it much more "positive" and people could also post the positive things about their school/teaching position.

A directory is needed. It can be that simple with a 5 point rating system and a simple rating based on 3-5 criteria. Pictures could be uploaded and discussion/counterviews could be aired. No need for much moderation and just let people speak their mind.

I'll think a little more about it and send some more thoughts. It needn't be just Korea either and I think it better to do this for all teaching positions based on country/region / school type and grade.

DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com

[i4NI]

ddeubel, I'd love to collaborate with you and others. I have a domain up already, as you can see in my avatar. The site was mostly going to be relevant to expats living in Korea since that is what I can help get information best on. Also I didn't intend it to be just blacklist for hagwons, but like you said a general rating system. The system will take care of itself on which hagwons are bad. Also I don't like anonymous postings due to the fact it's more spam prevalent, and it takes less effort to bad mouth a place. I think a registration system is necessary. People who really feel a certain way about a school will take the time to register to inform others on their experience.

Other things I plan on having:
-I also wanted to list restaurants in Seoul and have users rate them.
-Basic FAQ questions that always come up on this board, stuff like CELTA, private tutoring info, f4 visa, where to buy certain products and other repetitive questions on here.
-Korean language wiki, already in the works. Just need to put some resources up and type out the general information out better before releasing it publically.

After playing around with joomla, it seems only the admin can add articles. A joomla + pligg program would work fine, but each individually doesn't seem to suit my needs

I'll keep trying other stuff.

[hugekebab]