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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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 Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| Many believe in God's divine healing |
Mary Baker Eddy and her Christian Scientists are one group that do. Faith healers, a la Oral Roberts, are another example.
Why is this topic a current event? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
sti
Actually, faith does involve positive thinking. As you may know, the Old Testament has the word "As a man thinketh...." The New Testament has Jesus (Yeshua) saying that we shouldn't worry about tomorrow, have faith in God taking care of us the present and to, and, yes, faith does involve having a positive attitude. |
Sorry. I thought you meant faith was defined as having a positive attitude. obviously it isn't. Whether faith involves having a positive attitude is up for debate i suppose. Are credulous people more positive? Hard to tell.
Could you link to those people who recovered from paralysis through the power of faith, after doctors had given up on them(and presumably sto treating them)?
Also what is your view on the point i made above..if God intercedes and heals people, does he also not intercede on others behalf? In other words does God pick and choose?
following that logic, is God responsible(as in i would be responsible if i saw something i could stop, but didn't) for people's death or pain?
Does God look down on(for example) pedophilia in action and choose not to intercede because the girl does not have sufficient faith?
Believing in an intercessionary God involves a lot of cognitive dissonance, if you want to believe that God is good. |
There have been countless cases documented where people prayed and believed they were healed from all kinds of conditions. People choose to believe in that or not. You don't need links. You can read yourself about that and read about Padre Pio and how people were healed after praying to him, and I am not endorsing Catholic saints per se or praying to them or denigrating another belief system, because I think this world has had too many wars in say the Balkans or the Middle East and Western Europe (Ireland) over sectarianism and religious differences.
You asked me about God and why he does or doesn't intercede. God is supposed to be mysterious. If so, how am I so to answer that? I have no answer for you. If I did, then I would be able to create 1,000 computers out of my own thoughts and do all kinds of miraculous things of that nature.
Why does God choose some over others? How would you define God?
Many of us have this concept of some heavenly figure in the clouds.
I didn't use the term God. That's just a conception and a name we use to define the spiritual, and the idea of some energy out there that supposedly can create miracles, bring about healing, and maybe lead people to go to some surreal abode after they leave their earthly body, their flesh. We can't really say.
There was a passage in the New Testament about Jesus being asked by some Jews if a blind man was blind, because of something that was done before his coming into the flesh, basically. I am not sure if Jesus gave an answer that would satisfy you nor can I. It doesn't negate the idea that there is some universal energy, some kind of cosmic force that people call God or some other appellation. People created religions, because that's what most people believe. The problem is when it infringes on the liberties of others. It is hard to answer your question from a strict Judeo-Christian point of view, maybe. However, if a God saved every single person, you could argue why is God saving every single person. There would be no significance to saving, then?
Or, you could go with the idea of the spirituality of cause and effect and that before we come into flesh, we have some past baggage. I am not sure you can base faith on logic. It may seem illogical based on our limited senses. It is hard to argue against that. You can argue for faith or atheism. Anyway, I prefer an atheist over a person who doesn't try to approach spirituality with any logic. Such persons can be quite dangerous.
Perhaps, this should be moved to the off-topic section? |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| There have been countless cases documented where people prayed and believed they were healed from all kinds of conditions. People choose to believe in that or not. |
I don't need to choose. There is no evidence for this. I can choose whether to believe something for which there is no evidence for or not. That to me is not a choice.
Padre Pio is on the wall of our house at home and even though i know he is just a dude that cut himself when no-one was looking, I know alot of people pray to him. There is no evidence that this prayer works however . (I'm not sure if you are a catholic or not, but that system is laughable.
Whatever is wrong with you or whatever problem you have, you pray to a certain saint. My mom always tells me to pray to St Martin when I want to make decisions.)
Indeed as has been shown already, the best evidence shows that it does not work or has the opposite effect.
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You asked me about God and why he does or doesn't intercede. God is supposed to be mysterious. |
Cop out plain and simple. This is very simple. If he intercedes in some cases and not others, then he is not good. The 'mysterious' argument as a defense against this is pathetic and oh so very catholic.
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| If so, how am I so to answer that? I have no answer for you. If I did, then I would be able to create 1,000 computers out of my own thoughts and do all kinds of miraculous things of that nature. |
The answer is quite simple. There is no all powerful and wholly good God interceding on people's behalf. I didn't need a 1000 computers to come to that very simple and logical conclusion.
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Why does God choose some over others? How would you define God? |
God is defined as a wholly good and all powerful being.
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| It doesn't negate the idea that there is some universal energy, some kind of cosmic force that people call God or some other appellation |
It is impossible to negate an idea that is made to be unprovable either way.
For example it is impossible to negate the idea that there are invisible, untouchable, silent, scentless, cats hovering above our heads controlling our thoughts for their own amusement. I could believe this unprovable idea for which there is no evidence(have faith) and feel like these cats cured an illness i have. I would be a fool.
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| However, if a God saved every single person, you could argue why is God saving every single person. There would be no significance to saving, then? |
So the pedophilia is to create a contrast? Well I'm convinced..that explains everything. This is where you made the mistake. My uncle(who is a priest and a great guy) will always stop at 'mysterious ways' because as soon as you try to explain God's actions logically they sound absolutely ridiculous.
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| I am not sure you can base faith on logic. |
Are you really not sure.?! Faith=believing in something without evidence or in the face of evidence. It is extremely illogical. The only way to believe in an intercessionary God is to throw away logic.
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It may seem illogical based on our limited senses. |
As do the aforementioned cats. cop out again. If it seems illogical based on our senses then it most likely is false. our senses are not that limited.
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| You can argue for faith or atheism. |
Faith involves no argument, but blind belief. So obviously you cannot argue for it, if the word 'argue' implies some kind of logical construction of reasons for or against. Your chief argument seems to be 'God is mysterious'. That is no argument but a statement of faith. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
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You asked me about God and why he does or doesn't intercede. God is supposed to be mysterious. |
Cop out plain and simple. This is very simple. If he intercedes in some cases and not others, then he is not good. The 'mysterious' argument as a defense against this is pathetic and oh so very catholic.
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The arrogance of anti-theist arguments are often inversely proportional to the actuall quality of such retorts.
Its not a cop out to be unable to speak of the wisdom of God vis-a-vis particular instances of God's grace. I understand that the Catholic concept of grace is difficult, but that doesn't make it a cop out. No, a cop out is simply rejecting the principle of grace as prima facie simplistic. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
| Quote: |
You asked me about God and why he does or doesn't intercede. God is supposed to be mysterious. |
Cop out plain and simple. This is very simple. If he intercedes in some cases and not others, then he is not good. The 'mysterious' argument as a defense against this is pathetic and oh so very catholic.
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The arrogance of anti-theist arguments are often inversely proportional to the actuall quality of such retorts.
Its not a cop out to be unable to speak of the wisdom of God vis-a-vis particular instances of God's grace. I understand that the Catholic concept of grace is difficult, but that doesn't make it a cop out. |
It is. It is very easy to see a situation where if a being that can intercede, does not, then it is not good.
If by mysterious, you mean God may be good or bad, or somewhere in between then ok..I can buy that.
Now you could say that God adheres to a different morality..well again he cannot be good..as we know it.
The catholic concept of grace is incredibly simple. Thats one of the things I like about the old school catholics in particular. The beauty is in the simplicity. Its accountancy at its heart. Plenary indulgence(+1), venial sin(-1)..etc etc. I love the system of praying to saints or our lady to attain favors. Its bureaucratic and so human.
Talk to an irish woman in her 50s or older(when they learned the catechism by heart). She will fill you in the concept of catholic grace in oh, maybe 5 minutes.
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| No, a cop out is simply rejecting the principle of grace as prima facie simplistic. |
I would say with a whole life's experience and being influenced by priests and other very religious people, I'm not writing off the principle of grace without thinking about it. I've thought about it, and I've asked the simple questions for which there are no answers.
The mysterious or complicated element is introduced so as to give an escape route from very simple logical questions. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
| Quote: |
You asked me about God and why he does or doesn't intercede. God is supposed to be mysterious. |
Cop out plain and simple. This is very simple. If he intercedes in some cases and not others, then he is not good. The 'mysterious' argument as a defense against this is pathetic and oh so very catholic.
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The arrogance of anti-theist arguments are often inversely proportional to the actuall quality of such retorts.
Its not a cop out to be unable to speak of the wisdom of God vis-a-vis particular instances of God's grace. I understand that the Catholic concept of grace is difficult, but that doesn't make it a cop out. |
It is. It is very easy to see a situation where if a being that can intercede, does not, then it is not good. |
Yes, yes. The old conundrum: Why does God let innocent children die horrible deaths?
If the highest good is free will for mankind, then lesser evils must be tolerated for that highest good. God was aware of this mess when he counseled Adam not to eat the fruit from the tree; before Adam ate the fruit he wasn't self-conscious enough to even formulate concepts like 'innocent' 'horrible' and 'goodness' themselves. The crucible of theodicy is in itself the intellectual snake-like seduction away from God; the final resentment against God for not having let us relax in the garden.
But could that be the answer? The child is still in Eden, which is why we condemn God for its death even more: we are as resentful about the child's innocence alone as we are about the fact that it coincides with apparently unjustified suffering. But if the child is still in Eden, then the child is not conscious of the injustice (or rather the ajustice) of its circumstance. The child is not robbed of its innocence by having to suffer, because for the child, its suffering is experienced only as raw suffering, devoid of any moral context. The original sin is only felt by the parents of the child (or other adults contemplating such a hypothetical), and the original sin is the anguish of being outside the grace of God's beatific, understanding, and justifying vision. And to not entirely cop out, I will be specific in explaining what grace might reveal: in the case of the child, grace might include understanding that experiencing suffering (and even ultimately an untimely death) is not the worst evil. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Ok but the important part of that is can intercede.
I can buy this...
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| . But if the child is still in Eden, then the child is not conscious of the injustice (or rather the ajustice) of its circumstance. The child is not robbed of its innocence by having to suffer, because for the child, its suffering is experienced only as raw suffering, devoid of any moral context. The original sin is only felt by the parents of the child (or other adults contemplating such a hypothetical), and the original sin is the anguish of being outside the grace of God's beatific, understanding, and justifying vision. And to not entirely cop out, I will be specific in explaining what grace might reveal: in the case of the child, grace might include understanding that experiencing suffering (and even ultimately an untimely death) is not the worst evil. |
if God does not intercede at all. The claim here though is that God sometimes intercedes. I can see a self imposed rule where god cannot interfere with our free will after the fall or whatever, but picking and choosing is a different matter.
In that situation you have to wonder, why does he cure this cancer patient but not that one? |
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JustJohn
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Location: Your computer screen
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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JMO's last question is a very good one.
I can see one of the first answers being "due to the faith and prayers of those individuals" - God helps those who earnestly ask and believe. However, if the studies really do show that prayer has no effect, then this explanation seems improbable.
Interested to see if anyone can come up with an actually good answer. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| JMO, you keep using the term God. We don't know what God is, and you were arguing with me as if I necessarily embrace a traditional view on things. I don't. Some people in a God from the heavens simply interceding. Remember, one thing those who claim intercession usually are praying or connecting in some fashion. There is something at play when it comes to spirituality. If "God" would intercede for everyone then there would be no free will. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| JMO, you keep using the term God. We don't know what God is, and you were arguing with me as if I necessarily embrace a traditional view on things. I don't. Some people in a God from the heavens simply interceding. Remember, one thing those who claim intercession usually are praying or connecting in some fashion. There is something at play when it comes to spirituality. If "God" would intercede for everyone then there would be no free will. |
You are talking about a traditional God, just using different terms like energy. A God that intercedes and cures people when they pray or connect is a traditional God.
There is no evidence that something is at play when it comes to spirituality. If you have any, I would be glad to see it. Just remember that the plural of anecdote is not data.
If 'god' intercedes for some and not others, then he or it is making a choice.
If it is a morally ambiguous God as in it not good or evil but just there, then this is possible. At that point though, you would also have to attribute bad interventions to this God. Die in a freak accident? God did it. Contract a rare disease? God did it. You can't really have it both ways.
Also, wouldn't God interfering for some people also negate free will? |
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JustJohn
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Location: Your computer screen
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Just for the record, it's perfectly possible to heal someone without violating anyone's free will. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| JMO, you keep using the term God. We don't know what God is, and you were arguing with me as if I necessarily embrace a traditional view on things. I don't. Some people in a God from the heavens simply interceding. Remember, one thing those who claim intercession usually are praying or connecting in some fashion. There is something at play when it comes to spirituality. If "God" would intercede for everyone then there would be no free will. |
You are talking about a traditional God, just using different terms like energy. A God that intercedes and cures people when they pray or connect is a traditional God.
There is no evidence that something is at play when it comes to spirituality. If you have any, I would be glad to see it. Just remember that the plural of anecdote is not data.
If 'god' intercedes for some and not others, then he or it is making a choice.
If it is a morally ambiguous God as in it not good or evil but just there, then this is possible. At that point though, you would also have to attribute bad interventions to this God. Die in a freak accident? God did it. Contract a rare disease? God did it. You can't really have it both ways.
Also, wouldn't God interfering for some people also negate free will? |
If God interferes for others after they asked for the intercession it is after they've exercised free will. How would that negate free will?
You are trying to juxtapose a man identity on God. We don't know who God is. If people die in an accident, they die in an accident. You would have to look at the interpretation of spirituality and based on that you would have different counter arguments. If people are born as spirits entering the flesh then you don't know what humanity is exactly before birth. Those with views on spirituality believe we have come from somewhere. Those who have no faith don't believe in that. I think the Eastern religions may have a more realistic view on this.
You can get cured without believing in God if your spirit believes in getting cured i.e. the mind over matter. Why do people have a stronger will than others or different spirits. You would have no real explanation for that, either. Our world and humanity are more complicated than you think. There is a certain reality beyond our sense of some solid, fixed world. I am not trying to impose my view on you, but I think your view is a simpler view, and it is one we can easily see with the senses, and I can understand it. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:07 am Post subject: |
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If God interferes for others after they asked for the intercession it is after they've exercised free will. How would that negate free will?
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there are many who ask for intercession who never receive and in fact there is no evidence that any receive.
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| you can get cured without believing in God if your spirit believes in getting cured i.e. the mind over matter. |
Could you provide evidence of this? not anecdotes. Spirit and mind are not the same thing. positive thinking may help recovery from illnesses, but you cannot extrapolate a spirit from that.
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| Why do people have a stronger will than others or different spirits. You would have no real explanation for that, either |
Stronger will? environment, education and genes. Spirit? there is no evidence for any spirit. provide some.
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| There is a certain reality beyond our sense of some solid, fixed world |
Any evidence of this? You believe this, but that does not make it true.
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| I am not trying to impose my view on you, but I think your view is a simpler view, and it is one we can easily see with the senses, and I can understand it. |
My view is simple as in it makes the least possible assumptions. |
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laserprinter
Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| Be cool, love Jesus. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:05 am Post subject: ... |
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| If the highest good is free will for mankind, then lesser evils must be tolerated for that highest good. God was aware of this mess when he counseled Adam not to eat the fruit from the tree; |
How's about that whole episode that starts with Numbers and doesn't really settle down until the end Kings?
God calls for a head count of able-bodied fighters, then they plough into the Canaanites and then things get pretty Quentin Tarantino for oh, I dunno, numerous generations what with Philistines and such.
Our man David butchers cities, lays with women, and then gets a jolly good send off.
Throughout this, the OT god is definitely not kicking back in some hands-off position saying, "Oh, Eden, I told you so." Rather, he's got his fingers deep in it. smiting one guy here, protecting another there, occasionally sterilizing someone while more often fruitfully multiplying another.
Yeah, it's a mess alright. |
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