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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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kuros,
Koreans have never frieghtened me with their nationalism. Made me roll my eyes? Sure.
Chinese people on the other hand... I had a Chinese classmate say the actions in Tienanmen Square were good during a class presentation. The party propaganda you mentioned? I have a few classmates who sound exactly like that propaganda with sincerity.
My classmates are better educated than your average Chinese person. They obviously have spent time outside China. While the type of nationalism they have shown can be found amongst Americans, it is rare amongst graduate students in IR programs.
Of course, I've never been to China. I really cannot say if those classmates are the exception or the rule. Nevertheless, the fact that such highly educated people follow the party line so closely is a bit disturbing. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
kuros,
Koreans have never frieghtened me with their nationalism. Made me roll my eyes? Sure.
Chinese people on the other hand... I had a Chinese classmate say the actions in Tienanmen Square were good during a class presentation. The party propaganda you mentioned? I have a few classmates who sound exactly like that propaganda with sincerity.
My classmates are better educated than your average Chinese person. They obviously have spent time outside China. While the type of nationalism they have shown can be found amongst Americans, it is rare amongst graduate students in IR programs.
Of course, I've never been to China. I really cannot say if those classmates are the exception or the rule. Nevertheless, the fact that such highly educated people follow the party line so closely is a bit disturbing. |
I don't know how to address your anecdotes except to place them alongside experiences of my own.
Almost every productive political conversation I've had with a Chinese has been with a Chinese who has experienced the hypocrisy of his or her own government firsthand or even secondhand. There's usually a moment for each Chinese. I would not be the first person to note that overseas Chinese are often more patriotic because they experience more outsider criticism of their country's system then they actually experience negative aspects of their country's system. Older Chinese, meanwhile, handle my criticisms of China with a kind of weariness. 'Yes,' they will say, 'even if what you say is true, how does talking about the problem help?'
Chinese are not stupid. The Western press dumps on their country, their system, and even their way of life almost 24/7 as their Olympics rolls on. Those who are proficient in English have gotten an upclose encounter with the hypocrisy of Western media and many do not like it. The Beijing Chinese attitude tends to be: 'what is the utility of all this noise? does this really help you or us?'
Perhaps I am ennobling the Chinese too much, and I seem to be in danger of violating the same caveats against generalizations I set down to Gwangjuboy. But when I look underneath the patriotism and nationalism, I do not see any sort of malice or insoluble resentment. I do not see the stubborn self-obstructionism of the Korean Left. I just see a people making an initial outrageous claim against what they believe are other outrageous claims. Its almost like a bargain, and when you concede a little here, there tends to be a movement back and towards the center. I could never make much headway with Korean prejudices, no matter how much I advanced my own caveats and admittances. I've found that, with many Beijingers in particular, if you address specific claims with your own modest views of reality, you can work your way to a reality-based consensus and still have time to drink and celebrate over it. At the bottom of the nationalism is usually a brand of pragmatism, which is the same pragmatism that is able to negotiate with the CCP nonsense, because it sees the value in it (yes, there is a great value to a unified China with a unified narrative!).
I don't know. I have had really good discussions with Chinese about politics. In some ways its almost better than with Americans, because Americans can be so ardent and strident with their own ideologies (Left v Right partisanship, etc). |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| No, it doesn't, not in most circumstances. You're just spouting a line the party would be happy for Chinese to accept. But that's not the reality. I'm sure you're aware of the millenial struggle between imperial and local government in China, and how independent many small fiefdoms within China can be. The concept of the motherland is what the CCP was trying to sell, and they spent a lot of money to sell it to their people. The correct inference would be that its something the CCP has to continually reinforce, not that 'Chinese' nationalism is self-sustaining like the leftist Korean nationalism which rails against its own leaders for making FTAs with the US. |
Even in Nazi-Germany there were regional variations and conflicts between catholicism, industrialists, left-leaning rank and file party members, farmers in Saxony and Berliners - traditionally left-wing, not too mention a myriad of competing fiefdoms. Does it mean that Nazi-Germany was any less nationalistic? China is just simply too big for wholesale subserviance to work. Sometimes this is forced - as you rightly pointed out, but there is no denying that at governmental level Chinese nationalism is self-sustaining, and the next crop of Chinese industrialists, academics, and politicians - like the fanatics at Baeda, will perpetuate it. Ultimately that is where it counts. Disputes over forced evictions and conflicts between local and central governmental agencies are almost inevitable under such a political system. It's less an affront to Chinese nationalism than a bid to create fiefdoms and power bases - it doesn't make China any less zelously nationalistic. If you could point to massive conflicts between Chinese historians on touchy issues like Taiwan and the Japanese occupation of Manchuria then you might convince me.
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| But that your judgement that 'Chinese' are generally more nationalistic than Koreans is what really earned my 'that's a load of crap' comment |
Is there any discussion of history in China? I mean, real discussion? This is indicative of an overly-nationalistic coutry. For example, even in Korea certain historians have claimed that the comfort women issue has been grossly exaggerated, or even that Japanese colonial rule led to massive improvements in the lives of Koreans; they are generally ostracised as a result, but I am not sure whether there is enough discussion of history in the middle kingdom that would even facilitate such discourse. Of course, in China any deviation from the party version of events would lead to a much more unpleasant experience than ostracisation. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
kuros,
Koreans have never frieghtened me with their nationalism. Made me roll my eyes? Sure.
Chinese people on the other hand... I had a Chinese classmate say the actions in Tienanmen Square were good during a class presentation. The party propaganda you mentioned? I have a few classmates who sound exactly like that propaganda with sincerity.
My classmates are better educated than your average Chinese person. They obviously have spent time outside China. While the type of nationalism they have shown can be found amongst Americans, it is rare amongst graduate students in IR programs.
Of course, I've never been to China. I really cannot say if those classmates are the exception or the rule. Nevertheless, the fact that such highly educated people follow the party line so closely is a bit disturbing. |
I don't know how to address your anecdotes except to place them alongside experiences of my own.
Almost every productive political conversation I've had with a Chinese has been with a Chinese who has experienced the hypocrisy of his or her own government firsthand or even secondhand. There's usually a moment for each Chinese. I would not be the first person to note that overseas Chinese are often more patriotic because they experience more outsider criticism of their country's system then they actually experience negative aspects of their country's system. Older Chinese, meanwhile, handle my criticisms of China with a kind of weariness. 'Yes,' they will say, 'even if what you say is true, how does talking about the problem help?'
If enough people are made aware of the problem (by talking) and then demand change then it helps. It is certainly better then sweeping it under the carpet and pretending it doesn't exist. That helps no one.
Chinese are not stupid. The Western press dumps on their country, their system, and even their way of life almost 24/7 as their Olympics rolls on. Those who are proficient in English have gotten an upclose encounter with the hypocrisy of Western media and many do not like it. The Beijing Chinese attitude tends to be: 'what is the utility of all this noise? does this really help you or us?'
It might help the Tibetians to list just one example. And actually the attitude when it comes to that is more like 'There is no problem (not a real one anyway)'
Perhaps I am ennobling the Chinese too much, and I seem to be in danger of violating the same caveats against generalizations I set down to Gwangjuboy. But when I look underneath the patriotism and nationalism, I do not see any sort of malice or insoluble resentment. I do not see the stubborn self-obstructionism of the Korean Left. I just see a people making an initial outrageous claim against what they believe are other outrageous claims. Its almost like a bargain, and when you concede a little here, there tends to be a movement back and towards the center. I could never make much headway with Korean prejudices, no matter how much I advanced my own caveats and admittances. I've found that, with many Beijingers in particular, if you address specific claims with your own modest views of reality, you can work your way to a reality-based consensus and still have time to drink and celebrate over it. At the bottom of the nationalism is usually a brand of pragmatism, which is the same pragmatism that is able to negotiate with the CCP nonsense, because it sees the value in it (yes, there is a great value to a unified China with a unified narrative!).
This really depends on the specific Beijingers though, doesn't it?
I don't know. I have had really good discussions with Chinese about politics. In some ways its almost better than with Americans, because Americans can be so ardent and strident with their own ideologies (Left v Right partisanship, etc). |
Yes but greater value is placed on being polite and 'saving face' there as well. Could that not account for much of the difference in tone between Chinese and American discussions? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:38 am Post subject: |
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Look, I don't have to convince any of you that China is less nationalistic than you think: some of you have already made up your minds.
My position is as follows.
It is hard, almost impossible, to collectively group Chinese, as they have vastly different opinions and regional allegiances, but insofar as I want to make this brief, I will speak of Chinese collectively. Much of China's spirit is positive patriotism, rather than nationalism. Tibet may be an exception to this. Many educated Chinese are aware of the failings of their government, but also acknowledge its economic success, as well as the positive role that the U.S. and other foreign nations have played in this economic success. If I could base the manner of China's rise solely on the attitude I've witnessed from its people, I would be overwhelmingly confident that it would be a peaceful rise.
The Chinese are not entirely happy with the CCP and never will be. The West's verbal bombardment of China with its failures during the Olympics shows the wisdom of Machiavelli's statement that 'To Assault a Disunited City So As to Seize It by Means of Its Disunion is a Contradictory Policy' (Discourses on Livy II. 25). It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. IOW, if the West wishes the Chinese to flock to the CCP, they should continue to criticize it. For naturally, the Chinese are disposed against the central authoritarian power.
This is China, so there are exceptions both numerous and notable regarding the above statements.
My feeling is that if you think the Chinese are nationalistic in the Korean or Japanese mode, you've misread one of the most open societies in Asia. My thinking is that if you think the Chinese are a threat to the modern world, you're probably right. But, they are a threat largely because their rise is so fragile and precarious. The biggest threat we face as a world today is the economic failure of China, not its economic success. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Much of China's spirit is positive patriotism, rather than nationalism. |
Well, that's settled then. Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.... |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Much of China's spirit is positive patriotism, rather than nationalism. |
Well, that's settled then. Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.... |
To be fair, this is not how the thread started. It started with a Gold Medal Tally. It WAS about the Olympics. But Westerners always have to bring it back to what they want to talk about . . .  |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| ... I had a Chinese classmate say the actions in Tienanmen Square were good during a class presentation. The party propaganda you mentioned? I have a few classmates who sound exactly like that propaganda with sincerity. |
I had a chinese g/f who was quite cool and fun until she flew into a nationalistic rage about Tibet and foreigners having no right to judge. In fact over every issue she defended China as being perfect.Kinda scary because I thought that while the ordinary civilian might tow the official line in public, they would at least form their own opinions in private. Not so. |
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