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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
Ok but the important part of that is can intercede.
I can buy this...
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| . But if the child is still in Eden, then the child is not conscious of the injustice (or rather the ajustice) of its circumstance. The child is not robbed of its innocence by having to suffer, because for the child, its suffering is experienced only as raw suffering, devoid of any moral context. The original sin is only felt by the parents of the child (or other adults contemplating such a hypothetical), and the original sin is the anguish of being outside the grace of God's beatific, understanding, and justifying vision. And to not entirely cop out, I will be specific in explaining what grace might reveal: in the case of the child, grace might include understanding that experiencing suffering (and even ultimately an untimely death) is not the worst evil. |
if God does not intercede at all. The claim here though is that God sometimes intercedes. I can see a self imposed rule where god cannot interfere with our free will after the fall or whatever, but picking and choosing is a different matter.
In that situation you have to wonder, why does he cure this cancer patient but not that one? |
You're right. Which is why if I were Catholic, I'd be hushing up so-called 'miracles.'
The Church should be emphasizing only one miracle: the resurrection of Christ, and the resulting salvation of mankind through God's grace. The rest of it is really all superstition. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
[
Cop out plain and simple. This is very simple. If he intercedes in some cases and not others, then he is not good. The 'mysterious' argument as a defense against this is pathetic and oh so very catholic.
[. |
That's what the Bible is based on. God picks some people to be in Heaven with Him and the rest are sent to Hell.
Your argument about God not being good, is based on a fallacy. This assumes that human beings DESERVE to be healed or saved for that matter. The Bible is very clear that NO human being deserves anything of the sort. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." If God interceeds then it is more than anyone deserves, plain and simple.
If God created us, and then set rules for our behaviour, does He not have the right to reward those (either now or in the hereafter) that try to follow the rules and punish those that don't?
Nature does the same thing. If I throw a stone straight up in the air, and disregard the rule of gravity, by not moving out of the way or at least trying to, I certainly deserve to get smacked in the head when it comes back down. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
Ok but the important part of that is can intercede.
I can buy this...
| Quote: |
| . But if the child is still in Eden, then the child is not conscious of the injustice (or rather the ajustice) of its circumstance. The child is not robbed of its innocence by having to suffer, because for the child, its suffering is experienced only as raw suffering, devoid of any moral context. The original sin is only felt by the parents of the child (or other adults contemplating such a hypothetical), and the original sin is the anguish of being outside the grace of God's beatific, understanding, and justifying vision. And to not entirely cop out, I will be specific in explaining what grace might reveal: in the case of the child, grace might include understanding that experiencing suffering (and even ultimately an untimely death) is not the worst evil. |
if God does not intercede at all. The claim here though is that God sometimes intercedes. I can see a self imposed rule where god cannot interfere with our free will after the fall or whatever, but picking and choosing is a different matter.
In that situation you have to wonder, why does he cure this cancer patient but not that one? |
You're right. Which is why if I were Catholic, I'd be hushing up so-called 'miracles.'
The Church should be emphasizing only one miracle: the resurrection of Christ, and the resulting salvation of mankind through God's grace. The rest of it is really all superstition. |
Just the rest? I'd say its all superstition, just that that particular superstition is easier to expose logically. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
[
Cop out plain and simple. This is very simple. If he intercedes in some cases and not others, then he is not good. The 'mysterious' argument as a defense against this is pathetic and oh so very catholic.
[. |
That's what the Bible is based on. God picks some people to be in Heaven with Him and the rest are sent to Hell.
Your argument about God not being good, is based on a fallacy. This assumes that human beings DESERVE to be healed or saved for that matter. The Bible is very clear that NO human being deserves anything of the sort. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." If God interceeds then it is more than anyone deserves, plain and simple.
If God created us, and then set rules for our behaviour, does He not have the right to reward those (either now or in the hereafter) that try to follow the rules and punish those that don't?
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Goodness has nothing to do with what a person deserves. If I watch as a rapist falls off a building when I had the power to save him, then I am not good. Maybe he deserves to die, but that is a separate matter.
Goodness also has nothing to do with it being your right or not. It would have been my right 300 years ago to own slaves, that would not make it good.
If God intercedes in some cases and not others, then he is evidently not good.(especially as many, many good people die horrible slow deaths)
The bolded part works both ways. It implies that people who die horrible deaths are being punished by God.
Also creating something, imposing rules and then toying with them, falls well outside the scope of 'good' also. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:59 am Post subject: |
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Oddly that survey reports the vast majority of medical professionals feel this is bunk:
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Sise, a Catholic doctor working in a Catholic hospital, said miracles don't happen when medical evidence shows death is near.
"That's just not a realistic situation," he said. |
So the people who see death every day have never seen much in the way of miracles. Where is god exactly? It's only people like fiveeagles that think their bronze aged sky god is going to change the laws of nature because they whisper magical words.
Last edited by mindmetoo on Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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OneWayTraffic
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
Oddly that survey reports the vast majority of medical professionals feel this is bunk:
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Sise, a Catholic doctor working in a Catholic hospital, said miracles don't happen when medical evidence shows death is near.
"That's just not a realistic situation," he said. |
So the people who see death every day have never seen much in the way of miracles. Where is god exactly? It's only people like fiveeagles that think they're bronze aged sky god is going to change the laws of nature because they whisper magical words. |
I thought it was only a miracle when it was impossible by normal means. So if miracles don't happen when death is near, when do they happen? When you stub your toe? |
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OneWayTraffic
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
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| If the highest good is free will for mankind, then lesser evils must be tolerated for that highest good. God was aware of this mess when he counseled Adam not to eat the fruit from the tree; |
How's about that whole episode that starts with Numbers and doesn't really settle down until the end Kings?
God calls for a head count of able-bodied fighters, then they plough into the Canaanites and then things get pretty Quentin Tarantino for oh, I dunno, numerous generations what with Philistines and such.
Our man David butchers cities, lays with women, and then gets a jolly good send off.
Throughout this, the OT god is definitely not kicking back in some hands-off position saying, "Oh, Eden, I told you so." Rather, he's got his fingers deep in it. smiting one guy here, protecting another there, occasionally sterilizing someone while more often fruitfully multiplying another.
Yeah, it's a mess alright. |
I loves me the old testament. Made church in high school a bit more bearable. What about the part where the ground swallows the whole family, right down to innocent babies? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
[
Cop out plain and simple. This is very simple. If he intercedes in some cases and not others, then he is not good. The 'mysterious' argument as a defense against this is pathetic and oh so very catholic.
[. |
That's what the Bible is based on. God picks some people to be in Heaven with Him and the rest are sent to Hell.
Your argument about God not being good, is based on a fallacy. This assumes that human beings DESERVE to be healed or saved for that matter. The Bible is very clear that NO human being deserves anything of the sort. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." If God interceeds then it is more than anyone deserves, plain and simple.
If God created us, and then set rules for our behaviour, does He not have the right to reward those (either now or in the hereafter) that try to follow the rules and punish those that don't?
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Goodness has nothing to do with what a person deserves. If I watch as a rapist falls off a building when I had the power to save him, then I am not good. Maybe he deserves to die, but that is a separate matter.
Goodness also has nothing to do with it being your right or not. It would have been my right 300 years ago to own slaves, that would not make it good.
If God intercedes in some cases and not others, then he is evidently not good.(especially as many, many good people die horrible slow deaths)
The bolded part works both ways. It implies that people who die horrible deaths are being punished by God.
Also creating something, imposing rules and then toying with them, falls well outside the scope of 'good' also. |
JMO is absolutely right. Goodness has nothing to do with the fittingness of the recipient. However, justice does. Which puts the ball back into TUM's court. Original sin means that it was just when the OT God did nothing or even punished his people. However, God does intercede and offer a miracle, salvation, in his goodness in the NT.
One of the stickiest problems with God is resolving the fact that he is both just and good even though justice and goodness are separate, distinct, and sometimes mutually exclusive virtues. |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:20 am Post subject: |
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FiveEagles, you are incredibly gullible.
Read the God Delusion and I guarantee you will stop posting this drivel. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
FiveEagles, you are incredibly gullible.
Read the God Delusion and I guarantee you will stop posting this drivel. |
Wasn't Fist Full of Feathers singing the praises of Todd Bentely?
http://kimolsen.wordpress.com/2008/08/16/todd-bentley-unhealthy-relationship-with-female-staff-member/
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| Todd Bentley has entered into an unhealthy relationship on an emotional level with a female member of his staff. In light of this new information and in consultation with his leaders and advisors, Todd Bentley has agreed to step down from his position on the Board of Directors and to refrain from all public ministry for a season to receive counsel in his personal life. |
Wow, he's pounding a lot of quiff. A man of god.
Bahahahahahaha.
I recall Fist Full of Feathers previously was championing Benny Hinn (scammer) and Ted Haggard (dust smoker, pole smoker).
I point out he also:
thinks the world is 6,000 years old!
thinks witches are real. In 2008!
thinks rock 'n' roll is the music of the devil!
thinks some couple can make gem dust appear out of nowhere!
thinks a legend of a bronze aged sky god is real!
thinks this bronze aged sky god can heal people!
And when he loses the argument he wants to beat you up. What a douche. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
FiveEagles, you are incredibly gullible.
Read the God Delusion and I guarantee you will stop posting this drivel. |
I hate that book and Richard Dawkins is a fool. I am sorry, but the dude is using his hatred for Christianity to build his popularity. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
FiveEagles, you are incredibly gullible.
Read the God Delusion and I guarantee you will stop posting this drivel. |
Wasn't Fist Full of Feathers singing the praises of Todd Bentely?
http://kimolsen.wordpress.com/2008/08/16/todd-bentley-unhealthy-relationship-with-female-staff-member/
| Quote: |
| Todd Bentley has entered into an unhealthy relationship on an emotional level with a female member of his staff. In light of this new information and in consultation with his leaders and advisors, Todd Bentley has agreed to step down from his position on the Board of Directors and to refrain from all public ministry for a season to receive counsel in his personal life. |
Wow, he's pounding a lot of quiff. A man of god.
Bahahahahahaha.
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David fell, but came back. Saul killed Christians before he became Paul. So what? Men are men. Todd did some amazing stuff and I really like him.
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| I recall Fist Full of Feathers previously was championing Benny Hinn (scammer) and Ted Haggard (dust smoker, pole smoker). |
Defending more like. Never have been a fan.
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| thinks the world is 6,000 years old! |
Maybe. It could be a lot older.
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| thinks witches are real. In 2008! |
True
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| thinks rock 'n' roll is the music of the devil! |
Wrong. Satan can use people to spead his hatred. Like you. 
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| thinks some couple can make gem dust appear out of nowhere! |
Absolutely. I have seen it happen lots. Actually it's gold dust and actually gems.
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| thinks a legend of a bronze aged sky god is real! |
If you are refering to the God that choose to send you to Heaven or Hell. Who sacrificed his son so that you could be a son.
Yes, I am guilty.
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| thinks this bronze aged sky god can heal people! |
Absolutely
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| And when he loses the argument he wants to beat you up. What a douche |
Only when you make rude remarks about my wife. It seemed to bring you to your senses for awhile since you were being nice.
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| Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? {21} For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. |
God makes the gospel foolish to keep out the arrogant. God's wisdom is found in the simplicity of the cross. You can't understand the kingdom, you have to humble yourself to it.
However, this wisdom of God is also accessible in this life.
Check this out;
I have a beautiful marriage with two amazing sons.
I have friends who would die for me.
I have a rapidly growing business; www.i-gate.ca that should reach a million in profits in 2009. I only started this business in 2007.
I am healthy.
I have peace which I didn't have when I didn't know Jesus.
I have joy even when things go wrong.
and so many other things.
Why shouldn't I believe in God's blessings? I couldn't do this on my own. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
God makes the gospel foolish to keep out the arrogant. God's wisdom is found in the simplicity of the cross. You can't understand the kingdom, you have to humble yourself to it. |
Yet an arrogant Christian gets a free pass.
Oh and there are plenty of Muslims, Jews and atheists that are richer and have prettier wives and children than you  |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Todd did some amazing stuff |
Banged his secretary.
| fiveeagles wrote: |
Check this out;
I have a beautiful marriage with two amazing sons.
I have friends who would die for me.
I have a rapidly growing business; www.i-gate.ca that should reach a million in profits in 2009. I only started this business in 2007.
I am healthy.
I have peace which I didn't have when I didn't know Jesus.
I have joy even when things go wrong.
and so many other things.
Why shouldn't I believe in God's blessings? I couldn't do this on my own. |
You'd have that without having to believe in santa. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ED209 wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
God makes the gospel foolish to keep out the arrogant. God's wisdom is found in the simplicity of the cross. You can't understand the kingdom, you have to humble yourself to it. |
Yet an arrogant Christian gets a free pass.
Oh and there are plenty of Muslims, Jews and atheists that are richer and have prettier wives and children than you |
Yeah, but the difference is when it all is taken away from you. What are the reactions of them all? Hatred.
What should the reaction of the Christian be? Love.
And that is the difference. |
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