Korean Job Discussion Forums

[PRagic]

5. And some people get in a rut. They come here thinking they'll only do a year or two to bank some coin and pay off some debt. But then they find that it's tough to transition back to 'home'. Many of these people aren't necessarily interested in teaching, but keep doing it. Sound like a great number of teachers we grew up with? It should.

But here, the market allows people to continue on without upgrading their credentials. You can work at a hakwon, manage hakwon teachers, or keep working at a public school. You can get university ESL teaching jobs with a BA or a non-related MA. So don't hate the playas, hate the game. Over the long-run, though, these opportunities may very well dry up. Already, many 'university jobs' are not much better than a public school job, and hakwon jobs are increasingly taking a back seat to public school jobs.

There are, however, a number of ESL teachers who continue to improve their skills and what they can bring to the classroom. This is good, because nobody ever benefited by learning from a rut. These people have upward mobility in the industry and employment flexibility in related services. Increasingly, as was the case in Japan, to make it here in ESL, you're going to have to take it seriously, and this means getting all the buzz and whistle degrees and certificates.

[TheUrbanMyth]

[Tobias]

There's a way to get them to love you and even offer to give you permanent residency status....agree to work for 1.5 mil or even less per month.

You do that and they'll LOVE you like you've never been loved in TESOL.

You may as well accept this prospect. The days of 2.5 million-a-month salaries, with all the bennies provided, for doing what we do is coming to an end.

There's an outfit based out of Australia that's contracting with schools in Thailand to provide English teachers. Check out the deal it provides, or at least provided as late as 2006:

1. Salary of 25,000 baht per month. This is about 775 USD.
2. Teachers get medical, but that's it.
3. Teachers must pay rent for apartments provided by school.
4. Teachers must furnish apartments. Each comes with a fridge. That's it.
5. Teachers must pay a deposit on apartments.
6. Teachers must pay for three meals a day.

This seems reasonable in a way, save for the chicken shit salary.
But get this:
a. The school 'owns' the apartment buildings, meaning the teachers pay the school for rent.
b. The teachers pay the school for meals when they eat in the school lunchrooms.

The question is 'how far into the schools' pockets do the Australian company's hands reach?' My guess is 'pretty damn far'. I suspect the company really owns the apartment buildings in these situations.

This company, or something very much like it, could easily get a foothold Korea.

[TheUrbanMyth]

[ReeseDog]

[Unposter]

I think PRagic's post was pretty close to spot-on, except for the whole part about more and more academic degrees. Not that getting them is bad; I just don't think it is the only way to survive in this business. I am also unsure of their cost effectiveness though I do not doubt that it has helped out some. My advise is do what you think is best for you. I'm big on experience and networking pays better but that might not be the best way for you.

And, once again this whole idea that the "gravy train" is drying up rares its ugly head. I sure as heck haven't seen it in my neck of the woods. As far as I can tell, jobs keep increasing and pay is still good. The future - who knows? My experience says that if you do a good job and you meet the right people Korea is still the land where anything is possible.

You most likely can't change the way Koreans look at us as a group - you can only change the way they look at you. Some think we are deadbeats. Other think we are rolling it much more than we are. Some think we are leaches; a few see us as an important cog in the Korean economic machine. Some give you teacher's day gifts. Others can't remember your name and stick their fingers up you know where. They all come from different experiences and have different expectations about you. I'm all for empowerment but my experience says that Korea is much more about the individual than some of us are willing to admit.

[PRagic]

I just meant that over the long haul, increasing your appeal in the market is going to benefit you one. Yes, connections can and do go a long way here, but while you are making more connections, so are 'they'. In the end, if someone has to pay a foreigner x million won to do something, all other things being equal, the person with the degrees and certs will win out; I've seen it happen more times than I can count.

'Surviving' is not the end goal. The goal is to work smarter; get paid more for 'working' less. Work is relative, of course, and I'm sure that the market is thankful for those who can stay year after year thinking that, hey, 20 contact hours a week is no biggie.

So back to the 'connections' argument. Great. They work. Many are making great coin because of them. But the important thing is that when most people mention 'connections', they also phrase the word along with 'might', 'should', 'can', or 'probably'. Degrees and certifications take the guesswork out of the equation by providing solid opportunities and by greatly increasing any chances one has of making valuable, long-lasting connections.

Gravy train? Making 5 or 6 million a month working one's tail off all hours was never my idea of a gravy train life style. Even the people I know making 10 million plus a month in ESL related work don't by any stretch of the term think they're on a gravy train.

Unposter ends up with a profound last paragraph. Attitudes are tough to change, and we can only do it one person at a time. This is a Confucian culture, though, and one way to do that is to narrow the playing field. We all get older, but other imrovements are up to us.

[hugekebab]

[Tobias]

[quote="PRagic"]...So back to the 'connections' argument. Great. They work. Many are making great coin because of them. But the important thing is that when most people mention 'connections', they also phrase the word along with 'might', 'should', 'can', or 'probably'. Degrees and certifications take the guesswork out of the equation by providing solid opportunities and by greatly increasing any chances one has of making valuable, long-lasting connections.

Gravy train? Making 5 or 6 million a month working one's tail off all hours was never my idea of a gravy train life style. Even the people I know making 10 million plus a month in ESL related work don't by any stretch of the term think they're on a gravy train....

[/quote]

Anyone who's making 5 or 6 is walking on thin ice. At any moment the bottom could fall out, as one makes himself awfully vulnerable by living that vida life.

I've thought about what it'd take to pull down 6 mil a month, and I think I'd get too aggravated at chasing down clients 7 days a week.

Someone actually makes ten mil a month in TESOL? That's like a year's salary in Thailand.

[Unposter]

PRagic,

It looks like we have some agreement about the "loser" issue. But, I guess we will have to agree to disagree about the experience issue. As an educator, I certainly do not value the importance of education but also as an educated person, I do see the value of experience and networking. It should not be discounted or thrown out all together. Especially, it has been my experience, which I do believe is indicative of the problems in this field, that it is a field where often who you know or the the happenstance (sp?) of being in the right place at the right time often figure more prominantly than other attributes such as education, professional skill, character or suitability for the position in getting jobs or generally profiting.

Anyway, there is nothing wrong with better educating yourself. But, at some point you need to stop educating yourself and start actually working. Work is good too and it can be quite the education. I would not be such an elitist to downgrade the value of work experience in bettering oneself. That is just my personal believe and my experience to date; I do understand that it may not be shared by all nor do I desire to have everyone agree with me. But, I do think there are alternatives to the one you put forth about continuous formal education.

There is more than one way to skin a cat and one of the nice things about Korea is that the system does tend to be wide open offering more opportunity than in many other places. I know some people criticize that but I don't think it is really well researched or understood. It has probably benefited Korean education and it has probably brought good people from diverse backgrounds into the field of education where they may not have been able to before. It probably has benefited many. People really should consider this. And, this needs to be better studied before drastic changes are made IMPO. As educated people, it is the only sensible option.

[PRagic]

Hey, Unposter. I don't think disagree all too much.

I don't dispute that connections work here...if and when you can make them, and if they're worth their salt. But you basically describe the same market flaw, that being the propensity for connections to keep less qualified teachers in better positions. My argument was that having better degrees and certifications, either to begin with or earned on 'the way up', helps to cut down on this, and will even more so in the future.

And, yes, earning is clutch, and any teacher who tells you it isn't important is either on feel-good pills, independently wealthy, or delusional. But I've seen loads of people take time off in the summer or winter to do certificate programs, and this was after they had finished their MAs on-line while working full-time! The simple fact is that many would-be professional teachers try to talk the talk, but they definitely don't walk the walk.

[Cheonmunka]

Maybe they have lots of energy.



PS: Unposter: mutual.

[PRagic]

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[orosee]

Somehow this is very interesting with a few great posts at some point. But it is obvious why the original topic is going to fail: there is no agreement at all what the definition of a "loser" is. Without a standard to measure against, without a clear set of criteria, what result can be achieved?

To the US and Canadian Americans, were the original colonists "losers" because they could not succedd in the Old World? If so, please consider what greatness came out of a bunch of such "losers".

I think the topic is interesting but the question needs to be refined into a set of criteria that cover many aspects and should not be used to determine a status of winner/loser. There are few things in life where one can come to a clear, binary solution. Not all of life is like "Death of a Salesman".

If you measure by financial success, you are applying the logic of a *beep*. If you measure by income over work hours, you may be applying the logic of a parasite. If you measure by personal satisfaction, you may (careful now) be applying the logic of a child molester (loooong shot, sorry).

An important question also is: if we stick to "losers", is that then in reference to the origin or present place? I.e. since this is about ESL teachers in Korea, does "loser" refer to the ability to adjust to an alien culture and a demanding, responsible job (at least what teaching should be) on a low salary, or the ability to land a better paid and outfitted job in the same environment (e.g. being one of the "rich expatriates"; or does it refer to a previous life back home that may or may not change while here?

Maybe the best way is to hold a poll: Totally meaningless but quick.

[Tobias]

[quote="orosee"]....
To the US and Canadian Americans, were the original colonists "losers" because they could not succedd in the Old World? If so, please consider what greatness came out of a bunch of such "losers".....
[/quote]

I've often thought about this myself. Many immigrants came to the US over the decades and even centuries. Why? Were they 'run off' from their home countries, meaning they were 'losers'? Not quite. According to Howard Zinn, the noted people's historian, 2 of 3 immigrants went back home sooner or later. But that 1 in 3....well, that guy may have been somebody with no prospects back home.

And don't forget the ultimate DESIGNATED losers--the folks sent to Australia or the blacks in South Africa. Steven Biko comes to mind. Losers are important to every society. Without losers, there can be no winners. Without winners, there can be no stability.