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| Evolution cant prove the big questions! |
| Even though, I believe in evolution, I am a monkeys uncle |
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23% |
[ 6 ] |
| I believe evolution happens, but I am not a monkeys uncle |
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34% |
[ 9 ] |
| I am undecided. there is just not enough evidence to choose a side |
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3% |
[ 1 ] |
| I believe in god. |
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19% |
[ 5 ] |
| I am a buddhist. |
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3% |
[ 1 ] |
| you are all wrong. |
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15% |
[ 4 ] |
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| Total Votes : 26 |
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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 Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:08 am Post subject: |
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Itaewonguy
There are times I think you are the closest thing we have on Dave's to a village idiot.
1) You don't seem to understand that there are different branches of science and that a lot of the questions you have posed don't fall within the purview of biology.
2) Secondly you don't seem to realise that even within the same science there are different disciplines and that the theory of evolution does not address the question of the origin of life no more than in mathematics probability theory can be used to calculate the area under a curve.
3) You clearly don't get that the concepts of the origin of species and the origin of life are two completely different concepts.
4) If you genuinely want an answer to the questions that you posed which are addressed by the theory of evolution Richard Dawkins has written a large number of books that answers those questions and his books are easily understood by people who have no scientific education (or even those who fell asleep in science class). Read them and then come back to us with any questions you still have.........unless of course all you're really doing here is trolling. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Grimalkin wrote: |
Itaewonguy
There are times I think you are the closest thing we have on Dave's to a village idiot.
1) You don't seem to understand that there are different branches of science and that a lot of the questions you have posed don't fall within the purview of biology.
2) Secondly you don't seem to realize that even within the same science there are different disciplines and that the theory of evolution does not address the question of the origin of life no more than in mathematics probability theory can be used to calculate the area under a curve.
3) You clearly don't get that the concepts of the origin of species and the origin of life are two completely different concepts.
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No I understand clearly! but I am not talking about that~!!! havent you guys worked that out yet!!?? JJEESSSUUUSSSS!
I think you are all just trying to save face!
It�s not about the origin of species or the origin of life!
It�s about the fact, how intelligent you all think you are! None of you can prove your theory! its all FAITH BASED! can you get that through your concieted heads??
So it�s not about what I know or don�t know!
It�s about what you all don�t know! And I have been letting you know that you all can�t back your claims!
I don�t need to read dawkins !
I don�t need to get educated to your level on biology, because I am not asking questions related to the workings of biology! I am letting you all know that your theory is nothing more than that! A THEORY without enough evidence to back it up! ( ultimate questions)
I suggest you all start to pick up some books on different alternatives so then we can at least have an UN bias debate! I don�t see the point in talking with you when you are nothing more than ONE SIDED!
I feel sorry for you than you are missing out on other alternatives, discarding them because they don�t fit into your ideology!
Why don�t you read some books on the Samkhya, Vedanta, Jaimini etc...
And why not throw in some philosophy books as well...
Lao Zi, Qingjing Jing, Descartes, Plato, etc..
chhiitttt but I guess that doesnt fit on yourself with HITCHENS, HARRIS and DAWKINS!!
| Quote: |
| The gift of learning to meditate is the greatest gift you can give yourself in this life. For it is only through meditation that you can undertake the journey to discover your true nature, and so find the stability and confidence you will need to live, and die, well. Meditation is the road to enlightenment.- |
Now why not get an education on spiritualism, meditation and philosophy, and then let�s have a chat ok! Because right now the only village idiot here are you blinded, conceited arrogant fools, afraid to experience or try something different! you all wave your hand up and SAY NO!! without even knowing anything about it!
I have given biology, atheism, and evolution a fair look! I have spent the past 1 year reading up on it.. conclusion? missing links!
what have you guys tried???
anyone can point the finger and say NO!! it takes a different person to actually give it a go! But someone likes you and mm2, ed etc... You guys would never understand spiritualism or meditation anyway! You have blocked yourself from ever reaching a state of enlightment!
Ohh and before you ask for scientific evidence of such practices! I will just say this... WHERE IS YOURS!?! |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| Blargh, I'm itaewonguy!!! I keep changing my argument but I have no real point to make!!! BBIBBOBBIBBO!! I like exclamation marks!!!! HUZZAH!!!!! Nobody knows anything about everything!!!! ARGH!!! BLARGH!!!!! |
you are an idiot! I never said you dont know things..
I just said your theory is lacking evidence and knowledge!
you have nothing is a fact, IM sorry you cant grasp that!
thats your problem if you wish to live in denial! |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| It�s about the fact, how intelligent you all think you are! |
I consider myself intelligent in some ways and unintelligent on some ways.
I am sorry if only one facet has shown through.
| Quote: |
| None of you can prove your theory! |
I don't purport to prove Evolution.
I only purport to back it up with evidence.
| Quote: |
| its all FAITH BASED! can you get that through your concieted heads?? |
No, I can't.
Pray tell us: why is it all faith based?
Are all the factual claims for Evolution nothing to you?
Should we take all the mountains of research which supports Evolution and throw it in the trash?
| Quote: |
I don�t need to read dawkins !
I don�t need to get educated to your level on biology, because I am not asking questions related to the workings of biology! |
I agree.
It doesn't take any factual knowledge to rave and rant.
Damn McCain! Damn McCain! Dammity dammity damn damn de damn damn!
Damn Obama! Damn Obama! Dammity dammity damn damn de damn damn!
| Quote: |
| I am letting you all know that your theory is nothing more than that! A THEORY without enough evidence to back it up! |
Did I say any differently?
Dawkins may call Evolution a fact, but I don't.
Keep in mind that we are all individuals, and that it is wrong to hold one Evolutionist liable for what another Evolutionist said.
That would be like us holding you liable for Rteacher's Hindu myths and Junior's diatribes against Catholicism.
| Quote: |
| I suggest you all start to pick up some books on different alternatives so then we can at least have an UN bias debate! |
I have read 4 books by Duane Gish.
I have read 1 book by Henry Morris.
I have read a book by Fred Hoyle, who claimed that we are all descended from extraterrestrial microbes.
I am reading an account of the Arkansas case, written by a Creationist who testified at the case.
| Quote: |
| Now why not get an education on spiritualism, meditation and philosophy, and then let�s have a chat ok! |
I used to be deep into that sort of thing.
I have read at least as many New Age books as I have Evolution books.
| Quote: |
| Because right now the only village idiot here are you blinded, conceited arrogant fools, afraid to experience or try something different! |
It was wrong for Grimalkin to call you an idiot, but two wrongs don't make a right.
Calling us fools is going to make us resistant to your point of view.
I don't endorse Christianity, but I think there is something to be said for turning the other cheek.
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| Ohh and before you ask for scientific evidence of such practices! I will just say this... WHERE IS YOURS!?! |
I am confused about what you want, because I thought you said, "I don�t need to read dawkins! I don�t need to get educated to your level on biology."
Do you want to learn more about our point of view or not?
I have given you a sample of a manuscript which I am writing.
I will be glad to give you the whole thing.
Is there room in your mailbox for 300 pages? |
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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Itaewonguy
| Quote: |
| It�s about the fact, how intelligent you all think you are! None of you can prove your theory! its all FAITH BASED! can you get that through your concieted heads?? |
Congratulations on finally catching up!
Actually while the rest of us weren't sleeping through science class we did learn that a theory is faith based. It isn't until all aspects of a theory are proven that it becomes a law. That's why the theory of evolution is called the theory of evolution and the law of conservation of matter is called the law of conservation of matter.
You might be slow but you sometimes get there.  |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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No I understand clearly! but I am not talking about that~!!! havent you guys worked that out yet!!?? JJEESSSUUUSSSS!
I think you are all just trying to save face!
It�s not about the origin of species or the origin of life!
It�s about the fact, how intelligent you all think you are! None of you can prove your theory! its all FAITH BASED! can you get that through your concieted heads??
So it�s not about what I know or don�t know!
It�s about what you all don�t know! And I have been letting you know that you all can�t back your claims!
I don�t need to read dawkins !
I don�t need to get educated to your level on biology, because I am not asking questions related to the workings of biology! I am letting you all know that your theory is nothing more than that! A THEORY without enough evidence to back it up! ( ultimate questions)
I suggest you all start to pick up some books on different alternatives so then we can at least have an UN bias debate! I don�t see the point in talking with you when you are nothing more than ONE SIDED!
I feel sorry for you than you are missing out on other alternatives, discarding them because they don�t fit into your ideology!
Why don�t you read some books on the Samkhya, Vedanta, Jaimini etc...
And why not throw in some philosophy books as well...
Lao Zi, Qingjing Jing, Descartes, Plato, etc..
chhiitttt but I guess that doesnt fit on yourself with HITCHENS, HARRIS and DAWKINS!!
Quote:
The gift of learning to meditate is the greatest gift you can give yourself in this life. For it is only through meditation that you can undertake the journey to discover your true nature, and so find the stability and confidence you will need to live, and die, well. Meditation is the road to enlightenment.-
Now why not get an education on spiritualism, meditation and philosophy, and then let�s have a chat ok! Because right now the only village idiot here are you blinded, conceited arrogant fools, afraid to experience or try something different! you all wave your hand up and SAY NO!! without even knowing anything about it!
I have given biology, atheism, and evolution a fair look! I have spent the past 1 year reading up on it.. conclusion? missing links!
what have you guys tried???
anyone can point the finger and say NO!! it takes a different person to actually give it a go! But someone likes you and mm2, ed etc... You guys would never understand spiritualism or meditation anyway! You have blocked yourself from ever reaching a state of enlightment!
Ohh and before you ask for scientific evidence of such practices! I will just say this... WHERE IS YOURS!?! |
An extended appeal to ignorance. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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In fairness to Itaewonguy, there have been a lot of people who have called Evolution a fact. I Google searched "the fact of Evolution" and got a Wikipedia page on the subject.
The list includes:
George Gaylord Simpson
Kenneth Miller
Stephen Jay Gould
Richard Lewontin
Douglas Futuyma
Richard Dawkins
Neil Campbell |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| I always thought that evolution was seen as fact, since it has happened. It's the 'how' evolution happened that creates theory and debate. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
No, I can't.
Pray tell us: why is it all faith based?
Are all the factual claims for Evolution nothing to you?
Should we take all the mountains of research which supports Evolution and throw it in the trash? |
I never said I was an evolution denier said the evidence to prove the origin of life is lacking in evidence! BIG difference...
So evolution as a belief! As a cult as a religion so to speak! Has to be faith based! The start of evolution needed a mathematical miracle!
More like an impossible miracle! But never the less a miracle! And miracles are a work of faith! Origin of species also needs a miracle!
Some men call it a hand of god! 
| Quote: |
Did I say any differently?
Dawkins may call Evolution a fact, but I don't. |
OK... fair enough, I take it back...
| Quote: |
I have read 4 books by Duane Gish.
I have read 1 book by Henry Morris.
I have read a book by Fred Hoyle, who claimed that we are all descended from extraterrestrial microbes.
I am reading an account of the Arkansas case, written by a Creationist who testified at the case. |
I think you a much more open person compared to some of the extremists on here...
| Quote: |
I used to be deep into that sort of thing.
I have read at least as many New Age books as I have Evolution books. |
Then you will admit that�s its possible that mind, body and soul might be what the spiritualists are saying, because it can be felt! Faith based like everything else. But evidence is felt and experienced!
| Quote: |
It was wrong for Grimalkin to call you an idiot, but two wrongs don't make a right.
Calling us fools is going to make us resistant to your point of view.
I don't endorse Christianity, but I think there is something to be said for turning the other cheek. |
Yes you are right, but if I�m attacked I�ll give back!
| Quote: |
I am confused about what you want, because I thought you said, "I don�t need to read dawkins! I don�t need to get educated to your level on biology."
Do you want to learn more about our point of view or not?
I have given you a sample of a manuscript which I am writing.
I will be glad to give you the whole thing.
Is there room in your mailbox for 300 pages |
What I want is for the extremists on here to admit they don�t know!!
I know your point of view! You are believing in a theory without all the facts! And IM fine with that! But please just admit all the facts are not in!
So we are also riding on a hunch!
| Grimalkin wrote: |
Itaewonguy
| Quote: |
| It�s about the fact, how intelligent you all think you are! None of you can prove your theory! its all FAITH BASED! Can you get that through your conceited heads?? |
Congratulations on finally catching up!
Actually while the rest of us weren't sleeping through science class we did learn that a theory is faith based. It isn't until all aspects of a theory are proven that it becomes a law. That's why the theory of evolution is called the theory of evolution and the law of conservation of matter is called the law of conservation of matter.
You might be slow but you sometimes get there. |
Thanks I guess
| Nowhere Man wrote: |
An extended appeal to ignorance. |
Keep dreaming!
| ED209 wrote: |
| I always thought that evolution was seen as fact, since it has happened. It's the 'how' evolution happened that creates theory and debate. |
Well said ED.. but, still need to see more fossil evidence..
and HOW. well thats the million dollar question isn't ... |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| But please just admit all the facts are not in! |
There are numerous details in which Evolutionists are undecided on the details. Scientists are still unsure which hominid species we are descended from. They are also unsure which lobe-finned species the amphibians are descended from.
In fact, Evolutionists thrive on such disagreements. They tell their readers and listeners, "See? They can't even get their own act straight!" They especially enjoy the disagreement--whether real or imagined--between the gradualists and the puncuationists. On page 141 of Why People Believe Weird Things, Michael Shermer writes:
| Quote: |
| Ranged against Eldredge, Gould, and their supporters are Daniel Dennett . . ., Richard Dawkins . . ., and those who opt for a strict Darwinian model of gradualism and natural selection. The debate rages, while creationists sit on the sidelines hoping for a double knockout. |
Your plea should be addressed to the Christians, not us.
This year's science textbook contradicts last year's science textbook, but Scripture never changes.
When ancient scriptures are found, proving that the Bible has hidden sources, the Christians don't listen.
When historical evidence against the Bible is found, the Christians don't listen.
When scientific evidence against the Bible is found, the Christians don't listen.
Rather, they continue to put bumper stickers on their cars saying "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it." |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
you are an idiot! I never said you dont know things..
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
you have nothing is a fact
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I can't wrap my head around this. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:34 am Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| itaewonguy wrote: |
you are an idiot! I never said you dont know things..
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
you have nothing is a fact
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I can't wrap my head around this. |
simple really...
I admit you are educated in the theory of evolution, the origins of specie, science, biology how to tie your shoe laces...
when it comes to proving that evolution is the reason for our existence you have no evidence (i.e. NOTHING)
You having nothing regards to the origin of life, and the facts needed to support the theory of evolution .
The only real fact you do have regarding the origin of life is. You dont have any facts.. you have nothing
are we clear? |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:20 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| are we clear? |
Ahh, you mean: "We have nothing.", because there's no one on earth who can tell you how life began.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| when it comes to proving that evolution is the reason for our existence... |
No one here has said that evolution is the reason for our existence.
Evolutionary theory is simply a tool, like math or physics. As long as it's useful we keep it around or change it as we see need to do so.
Do you deny that evolutionary theory is useful? |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:06 am Post subject: |
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Itaewonguy, are you going through an existential crisis?
If you are, I feel for you, because I went through the same thing in my sophomore year in college,
and I know how painful it is.
Is your stay in Korea somehow the cause or result of this existential crisis?
If it is, maybe we can relate to that, too--IF you stop attacking us. |
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OneWayTraffic
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| ED209 wrote: |
| I always thought that evolution was seen as fact, since it has happened. It's the 'how' evolution happened that creates theory and debate. |
This is the closest to the truth.
Facts and theories are different things, not rungs on a ladder of certainty. (Can't remember who said this.)
Sorry Grimalkin, but if your science teacher told you that theories ultimately become laws you were misled.
A Law is a generalisation about the universe. It's based mainly on observation.
A fact is an observation or series of observations. It's a fact that evolution happens: it has been observed.
A theory is a body of ideas that attempt to explain and predict facts and tie them together into a coherent whole. A theory is usually only called such in strict Scientific nonemclature once it's been extensively tested and verified. Before then it would be a hypothesis or group of hypotheses.
Evolution happened, that is a fact. Early fossils are totally different in structure and form to what we see today. Populations evolve in repsonse to pressure. Those things are facts, they happen.
The Theory of Evolution revolves around the idea that Natural Selection upon variation is the primary cause of such evolution. That was Darwins basic idea, and it's been built upon since. Of course this idea could be wrong, at least in principle. But I doubt it.
As an aside, isn't it funny to hear someone say that he doesn't need to learn anything about Evolution to know that it's all faith based. Never mind that it's the cornerstone of modern biology and hence, our understanding of all life. I wish I had the confidence of ignorance. |
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