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ReeseDog
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: Classified
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 Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Kikomom wrote: |
By that, do you mean the Equal Rights card? Guess so then.
slap |
1964. Old news there. Really, find a new argument. |
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Kikomom
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: them thar hills--Penna, USA--Zippy is my kid, the teacher in ROK. You can call me Kiko
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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When Obama is elected, GW and Elaine Chao can congratulate themselves that they did one thing right, and it might even put some feds out of a job.
http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/discrimination/
Last edited by Kikomom on Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Sorry you want to downplay these things in favor of keeping the discussing centered exclusively on our faults and shortcomings. |
It's really tiresome when you project your black and white view of things onto me. I really wish you wouldn't do it. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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When it comes to race-relations in America, you just demonstrated that you would reduce it to mostly being about slavery and then Jim Crow. That is narrow enough -- and equally tiresome, because such simplistic, antiAmerican reductions occur here daily -- to warrant my seeing your and the others', especially the OP's -- inability to recognize our achievements in favor of keeping the discussion centered exclusively on our faults and shortcomings. Sorry that irritates you. But that is what you are saying here when you object to my response to the OP and downplay such changes and events as those I listed, above, as hardly significant in American history.
You claimed that we had limited our discussion to the African-American experience as well. Very fine. Let us discuss America's treatment of its Indian peoples and cultures, and since we are doing so to reach moral judgments/condemnations, let us do so comparatively, and bring in everyone else in the western hemisphere, too -- especially those nation-states with significant Indian populations such as Mexico, Guatemala, Peru, Bolivia, and Chile. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:19 pm Post subject: ... |
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It's really rich to see this:
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| Why continue giving those of us who oppose you opportunity after opportunity to point out your staunch antiAmericanism? |
A couple of sentences after this:
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| More ignorant self-righteousness from the left. |
Hypocrisy.
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| And yes, it is antiAmerican [sic] to fault the United States, the nation-state that emerged after 1790, for events that began in the western hemisphere in 1492. |
Indeed, but shame on America for faulting John Wayne Gacy for events that began with Cain and Abel.
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| And let us not call it all dark and evil |
Strawman
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Truman's desegregating the armed forces
Brown vs. Board of Education
LBJ's Great Society and the Civil Rights Act |
Careful now. Remember how, according to deep academic reading, none of this counted and one day people in the South up and decided to oppose racists? |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:21 am Post subject: Re: H.I.S.T.O.R.Y. You Go Obama! |
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| moosehead wrote: |
| ... from a country which committed genocide against so many native people, enslaved and traded in human beings... |
Hey you nitwits who have a problem with this statement -what's the matter??
it's historical fact - you must have a hard time with reality; it's sorta dangerous you know when you start believing your own lies - !! bad enough you want others to believe them - 
R E A L I T Y - duh, that's like, you know, when you don't lie, distort, misinform, misconstrue, ignore the facts, ignore the events, cover up, deflect the topic at hand, defer discussion, ignore the question (like the beloved mouthpiece for the govt FOX NEWS)
you know - what republicans do !! and ultra conservatives!!
O B A M A !!
O B A M A !!
O B A M A !!
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:01 am Post subject: Re: H.I.S.T.O.R.Y. You Go Obama! |
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| moosehead wrote: |
| moosehead wrote: |
| ... from a country which committed genocide against so many native people, enslaved and traded in human beings... |
Hey you nitwits who have a problem with this statement -what's the matter??
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Obama, for one, has a problem with that statement. It's called 'waving the bloody shirt'. He hasn't gone there and he's not going to. If that makes him a nitwit in your book, then you'll have to sort that out on your own.
I'll say it again: I have listened to Obama's speech a few times, and I feel confident that, should he be elected, America will be in good hands. Next, I'll have a listen to what McCain has to say. etc |
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Kikomom
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: them thar hills--Penna, USA--Zippy is my kid, the teacher in ROK. You can call me Kiko
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:44 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I'm waiting for McSame's speech too. I anticipate grave, very grave and foreboding. The same dire predictions meant to wrought fear we've seen for the past seven years.
I've had enough of that crap, I've had enough of war. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| moosehead wrote: |
| it's historical fact |
I will feed the troll.
What agent caused Native Americans to die, especially in places such as the Valley of Mexico and Peru, in large numbers in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries (before recovering in the seventeenth and eighteenth)? Who, according to your historical knowledge, enslaved Africans and created the slave trade?
And yes, I still think you people are stupid. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
What agent caused Native Americans to die, especially in places such as the Valley of Mexico and Peru, in large numbers in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries (before recovering in the seventeenth and eighteenth)? |
That would be AIDS!  Perpetrated by the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT!!!    |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| [ And yes, it is antiAmerican to fault the United States, the nation-state that emerged after 1790, for events that began in the western hemisphere in 1492. |
I don't know of anyone who faults the U.S. for originating the practice of slavery. However it doesn't seem unreasonable to fault the U.S. for continuing the practice long after the U.S. was founded on the principle that all men are created equal. The fact is that the U.S. did choose to continue the practice of slavery.
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I hope you will also show awareness, however, that America also has a long history of dealing with its racial-relations problems head on. |
If that is true, it is also true, that most of that long history of dealing with its racial-relations problems head on, was of limited success at best. The fact is that a significant segment of the population continues to be racist and simply will not vote for Obama simply because he is Afro-American. Those are the stupid people. There is no denying that segment of the population exists. (And, no, I am not claiming that anyone who opposes Obama is a racist) |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Refusing to hear anything good about America, and always reacting with a quick list of its faults and shortcomings to counter anything good said, not to mention OP's sweeping scapegoating, strikes me as one of the key characteristics of antiAmericanism.
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It seems to me that the whole point of the original post is what a good thing it is that the U.S. has overcome its racist past to the extent that an African-American finally has a chance of actually being elected president of the United States. There is no denying America's racist past. Isn't the whole point what a great accomplishment it is that Obama actually has a chance? I don't mean Obama's accomplishnent, (although there is that too), I mean America's accomplishment in coming this far in overcoming its long history of racism. Isn't the whole point America's great accomplishment? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| jaykimf wrote: |
| It seems to me that the whole point of the original post is... |
Then you ought to get your senses checked. Further, you mischaracterize, in a very lenient and defensive way, the OP. You sound like a W. Bush spokesperson, in fact.
Finally, your understanding of "what the U.S. chose to do" reflects the usual simplemindedness we see here. Whatever occurred or did not occur in American history occurred against all kinds of debate and resistance. Your understanding of American history sweeps all of that complexity -- in this case, Southern politics and their relationship to national politics from the independence war to the Civil Rights era -- under the rug in favor of the far left's usual sweeping, indictment-style propaganda: America is racist!, etc. Not to mention the scapegoating: America is to blame for the Columbian Exchange's dark side as well as (oh, very well) single-handedly perpetuating the Atlantic slave trade after 1790...
Again, why can you people not celebrate B. Obama's accomplishment without hurling more of Rev. J. Wright's invective at America? You help make the case for those who question B. Obama's patriotism. Also, please do come back and let me know when you finally get around to leaving J. Wright's discourse behind and actually reading and thus seriously engaging American history. |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Then you ought to get your senses checked. Further, you mischaracterize, in a very lenient and defensive way, the OP. You sound like a W. Bush spokesperson, in fact. |
Are you suggesting W.Bush spokesmen are stupid, simpleminded, far left propagandists? Isn't that what you are suggesting I am?
| Gopher wrote: |
| Finally, your understanding of "what the U.S. chose to do" reflects the usual simplemindedness we see here. Whatever occurred or did not occur in American history occurred against all kinds of debate and resistance. Your understanding of American history sweeps all of that complexity -- in this case, Southern politics and their relationship to national politics from the independence war to the Civil Rights era -- under the rug ... |
No doubt the history of Racism in America is a complicated issue. No doubt there have always been many who opposed and fought against slavery and racism. However, the simple fact is that slavery continued for many years and racism and racial discrimination continued long after the end of slavery. Was America racist? Clearly many of its laws and official policies were racist. Clearly many of its citizens were racist. Clearly for most of its history, an African-American had absolutely no chance of being elected president, because of racism. But apparently that is all O.K., because it is a complicated issue that was widely debated.
| Gopher wrote: |
| in favor of the far left's usual sweeping, indictment-style propaganda: America is racist!, |
Is it really propaganda to acknowledge that America has a history of slavery and racial discrimination? Isn't it true that there still is a significant number of Americans who continue to be racist and who will simply not vote for an African-American?
| Gopher wrote: |
| Not to mention the scapegoating: America is to blame for the Columbian Exchange's dark side as well as (oh, very well) single-handedly perpetuating the Atlantic slave trade after 1790... |
Your straw man really is stupid and simpleminded , but what real person is making such claims? Certainly not me. Are you trying to defend the slave trade by pointing out that everybody else was doing it too?
| Gopher wrote: |
| Again, why can you people not celebrate B. Obama's accomplishment without hurling more of Rev. J. Wright's invective at America? |
Who is hurling Rev. Wright's invective at America? Certainly not me. Are you talking about your straw man again?
| Gopher wrote: |
| You help make the case for those who question B. Obama's patriotism. |
What has what I or anyone else said have to do with Obama's patriotism? Obama is unpatriotic because of what some poster on Dave's ESL cafe wrote? What the hell are you talking about?
| Gopher wrote: |
| Also, please do come back and let me know when you finally get around to leaving J. Wright's discourse behind and actually reading and thus seriously engaging American history. |
Obama is the first African-American who has any chance of being elected president. Do you disagree with that fact? Do you have any explanation for that fact, other than racism in America? Don't you think it is a good thing that America has at last reached then stage where it is possible for an African -American to be elected president? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Jaykimf: you intervened on this thread to apologize for and defend the OP. I am suggesting that and showing how that represents ignorance and stupidity.
OP accuses the United States govt of "genocide." OP accuses the United States govt of "enslaving and trading in human beings." I am truly sorry that you have chosen to defend that, again, ignorant, stupid thinking.
I will not play theoretical jiujitsu and spin games with you over this, especially, as is clear, since you have intervened on this thread to apologize for and defend this ignorance and stupidity.
As I have said earlier, and elsewhere here, please find a way to celebrate B. Obama's achievement without launching into antiAmerican tirades. Apparently, however, that remains too much to ask of some. |
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