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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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 Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
OP accuses the United States govt of "genocide." OP accuses the United States govt of "enslaving and trading in human beings." I am truly sorry that you have chosen to defend that, again, ignorant, stupid thinking.
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once more for the lower-life form you belong to:
I stated historical fact. You might want to read something other than the latest report from Aryan Nations Review 
further, this post is not about YOU numbskull - it's about O B A M A and the progress America has made and continues to make
you are pathetic. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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Moosehead: (1) you need to get your facts straight, then. And (2) far more concerning, I no longer see you as a troll but rather a true-believer. Another Dave's ESL Cafe-empowered, foaming-at-the-mouth, antiAmerican nutcase. So I am a neoNazi? Go figure.
Why can you people not celebrate B. Obama's victories without the diatribes? |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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Um, why must you continue to employ insulting grammatical forms even after ddeubel has patiently explained to exactly why many people might find such insult in your grand lumping-together of some large or small number of people who likely have quite various views and opinions on this and any sumber of other matters?
It does seem to to me that on more than one occasion, Senior Ardilla de Terra, you have expressed some displeasure at being made a target on the basis of personality. Can we guess at some reasons people might have for finding your personality worhty of their attention?
Here's a clue: "You people are stupid" hardly makes for positive and discerning commentary or debate.
And, moosehead? References to the Aryan Nation Brotherhood? Same to you, doubleplus ungood.
It is unfortunately true that racism has played a large part in American history, but I'll disagree with anyone who says that it's more so than other countries - however, it's also a fact that racism still exists in America and likely will not disappear as a significant factor for some many years, Obama or no Obama.
An assassination attempt was thwarted early last week, and while it's not unusual for a presidential candidate to be under threat, THIS one was from white supremacists, based solely on the color of the candidate's skin.
There is also the fact that, while Barack is somewhat ahead in the polls, many analysts would say that he ought to be much farther ahead - he going up against a party with dismal approval ratings in the middle of a war everyone is tired of and with an economy slumping just for icing on the cake. The thing I keep asking myself is why. Why are the numbers so close when the excitement is so high?
The opinion polls might not be telling us the true numbers, and it might be worse than it seems: I doubt that many people are willing to bluntly admit to a pollster that they would vote against a black man just for that, skin color alone, and there is likely some percentage of people who might claim to be voting for Obama but who will actually discard him due to his race once they get their private moment in the voting booth. I hope I'm wrong about that, and we'll all see in a few months.
Fact is, you know, we cannot "celebrate B. Obama's victories" without simultaneously noting that the reason this desrves our admiration is that is HISTORIC, and the reason it is historic is the past that lives next door to us every moment: America has been, and still is, a racist country.
As for me, I decided for myself several months ago that I like him as a candidate enough that I'd be voting for him no matter the color of his skin. With this platform, and this campaign, I'd wear his button even if his skin was bright purple with yellow polka dots - though buddha knows a button like that would clash horribly with the hawaiian-style casual wear I favor in the summer months ...
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
Um, why must you continue to employ insulting grammatical forms even after ddeubel has patiently explained to exactly why many people might find such insult in your grand lumping-together of some large or small number of people who likely have quite various views and opinions on this and any sumber of other matters?
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Bobster, I remember an Archie Bunker/George Jefferson exchange that went something like this:
Jefferson: You see, that's the trouble with you people [meaning union people], always asking for this, always asking for that, higher wages, more benefits....
Bunker: Wait a minute...
Jefferson: going on strike, just dragging business down...
Bunker: Now...
Jefferson: What is it?
Bunker: Jefferson, you people are you people.
[uproarious audience laughter]
Is it because the phrases match word for word one another? Are we incapable of nuance here? In one case it is unacceptable, in another it is just useful shorthand. Let's leave it at that, shall we? |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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What do all the past race-relations problems have to do with this election? I thought we were all supposed to vote for the candidate we think will do the best job, not vote for the candidate we think will assuage the consciences of guilt-ridden white men.
I don't want history to be made. I want my country made better. All that should matter is the candidates' policies, plans and abilities. Obama may indeed be the better choice, but it won't be because his election will make history. I'm getting tired of some of his supporters talking like, "we were racist in the past, let's prove we're not now!" |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| Is it because the phrases match word for word one another? Are we incapable of nuance here? In one case it is unacceptable, in another it is just useful shorthand. |
I don't think it's useful. I think it's rude. It's like saying, "People like you are what's wrong with the world."
The rare times when I hear that, I think two things. First, I'm an individual and no one is like me in every salient or relevant aspect, and you are trying to rob me of my uniqueness, so cut it out. The second thing I think, is, christ what an arrogant bastard you are, to presume that you know me well enough to claim I am similar enough to any significant number of people that you could hazard to make such a claim without conscious mendacity, so either wise up or stop lying through your teeth and trying to say I am someone I'm not.
What's wrong with saying, "People with opinions like yours are what's wrong with this country" - still, a ridiculous generalization, but we are still focusing on some views that have been expressed rather than the person, or lumping someone in with an ad hoc group of instant manufacture.
It's just hard to take people seriously who complain about lack of reasonable and well-reasoned discussion when you see such things as that go on.
flakfizer
| Quote: |
| I don't want history to be made. I want my country made better. All that should matter is the candidates' policies, plans and abilities. Obama may indeed be the better choice, but it won't be because his election will make history. I'm getting tired of some of his supporters talking like, "we were racist in the past, let's prove we're not now!" |
What's surprising to me is just how little of that I see happening, and honestly, I'd expect a lot more. I think it would be hard to listen to the speech he gave the other night and make a case that we are trying to make up for sins of the past. The man is simply charismatic, and he's got a program that manages to be both practical and inspiring at the same time. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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Very well said, Flakfizer. Cheers.
Bobster: why can you people not discuss B. Obama's gains without hurling your usual antiAmerican nonsense onto this board? Do you people think that we have never heard that baseless string of allegations before and that you people are telling us something new? Finally, first you people nitpick and complain when I use "you" in the plural; you people prefer to take it personally; and then you people throw tantrums until I clarify that I was not speaking to "you" in the second person singular. And now when I clarify that I am indeed speaking to you people in the second person plural, you people play your power games again by insisting that your people's hypersensitive, PC BS interpretation of my grammar rules in all uses of "you people" here and everywhere else in the universe.
Well that is just another stupid thing we can point to on this thread.
Why can you people simply not enjoy B. Obama's successes without all of the moronic baggage that you people insist on forcing into our lives every time you people ever talk about anything at all, hmm? |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| Is it because the phrases match word for word one another? Are we incapable of nuance here? In one case it is unacceptable, in another it is just useful shorthand. |
I don't think it's useful. I think it's rude. It's like saying, "People like you are what's wrong with the world." |
Yes, of course. That's exactly what I mean to say. And, rude or not, how I intend to say it. What's the problem here?
| The Bobster wrote: |
The rare times when I hear that, I think two things. First, I'm an individual and no one is like me in every salient or relevant aspect, and you are trying to rob me of my uniqueness, so cut it out. The second thing I think, is, christ what an arrogant bastard you are, to presume that you know me well enough to claim I am similar enough to any significant number of people that you could hazard to make such a claim without conscious mendacity, so either wise up or stop lying through your teeth and trying to say I am someone I'm not.
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People express themselves on this board. And it is no giant leap to conclude that a poster is not alone in his views.
If you cannot figure that out, then I feel sorry for you... just you...and only you. Better?
| The Bobster wrote: |
What's wrong with saying, "People with opinions like yours are what's wrong with this country" - still, a ridiculous generalization, but we are still focusing on some views that have been expressed rather than the person, or lumping someone in with an ad hoc group of instant manufacture.
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You know, I had originally intended to use exactly those words in bold print there. But I remembered the All In The Family dialogue and thought it might better illustrate my point. Apparently it went over your head, you cannot read between the lines, or you simply chose to ignore it in order to pontificate a little more. Not the first time. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| But I remembered the All In The Family dialogue and thought it might better illustrate my point. Apparently it went over your head |
I got it. I just didn't think it was interesting or relevant.
"You people" in itself is not racist terminology, but it is often employed by people who don't realize they are being so - it's because of what I said before (all my "pontificating" as you say, but I must protest that I am not at all Catholic): racism is rudeness and grammatical forms such as "you people" are rude because, once more, they are rhetorical attempts to draw similarities that don't exist, or exist in only the most tenuous and specious of ways. In other words it is misrepresentation right up the edge of a lie.
Oh, and go ahead and be rude, if this is your fondest of all desires. I'll just chuckle in amusement when I see people who have displayed that kind of rudeness then later make noises about being targeted and harassed by the people they were rude to, and haha, even more, the same people complain that the forum is not a fit place for intelligent discussion or debate.
"You people are stupid." Yep, the very pinnacle of informed and reasoned discussion.
Gopher
"There he goes again!."
--- Ronald Reagan, debating Jimmy Carter, circa 1980.
It's not PC BS interpretation of grammar rules. It's just courtesy. Be impolite to others all your heart desires, but don't complain later when others are impolite to you. And I do seem to recall times and places when you have made such complaints, my happy little Love Boat employee ...
Obama's acheivements, by the way, would be hefty and admirable whatever the color of his father's skin. He's brought a lot of people into the electoral process who had succumbed to cynicism and simply didn't care any more who lived in the White House becuase whoever it is it would almost certainly be a politician.
My own big nervousness is not about whther he will win or lose _ I think he will almost certainly win - but rather whether he will end up disillusioning the thousands who thought they had found something different. I'm steeling myself and getting ready to discover that he is just more of the same ...
Oh, well. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| Great, Bobster, ignore Moosehead's Fritz Hippler-like comments, (Oh, I see you gave it an afterthought) and play Miss Manners. That's way more important to you, I guess. Very well. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| One white guy uses "you people" at another white guy (or gal) and all of a sudden we're talking about racism? |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
What do all the past race-relations problems have to do with this election? I thought we were all supposed to vote for the candidate we think will do the best job, not vote for the candidate we think will assuage the consciences of guilt-ridden white men.
I don't want history to be made. I want my country made better. All that should matter is the candidates' policies, plans and abilities. Obama may indeed be the better choice, but it won't be because his election will make history. I'm getting tired of some of his supporters talking like, "we were racist in the past, let's prove we're not now!" |
I would never advocate voting for Obama because of his race. All that should matter is the candidates' policies, plans and abilities. However, throughout American history, that is not all that has mattered. Race has been more important than policies, plans and abilities. We may now have reached the stage where the white majority might at last be willing to elect the best candidate, regardless of race. That change in the attitude of American voters would be a historic change. That change in attitude would make America better. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| One white guy uses "you people" at another white guy (or gal) and all of a sudden we're talking about racism? |
It might also be generational. I had honestly never heard about it as a problem except through films and parodies of it: Anger Management and now Tropic Thunder. Probably means a lot to the '60s and '70s people -- yeah, Bobster the Pontificating Preacher, that is to say, you '60s and '70s people.
So rigid you people are. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:00 am Post subject: |
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Mises,
No, I don't think Bobster's saying that at all, to be fair. He just claims it's rude, whereas I say it's more of a handy second person plural subject/object pronoun... the English language being deficient in this.
Maybe he's got a point. How often do we use "You people" when praising another?
But I'm not sure I get this part:
The Bobster wrote:
| Quote: |
| they are rhetorical attempts to draw similarities that don't exist, or exist in only the most tenuous and specious of ways. In other words it is misrepresentation right up the edge of a lie. |
But you'd figure my previous post had anticipated it.
| Quote: |
| People express themselves on this board. And it is no giant leap to conclude that a poster is not alone in his views. |
I think if we Venn diagramed it we will find Bobster's quote to be true. And mine, too. Similarities that don't exist, check; Similarities that exist only in the most tenuous and specious ways, check; similarities that are spot-on, check.
Last edited by Leslie Cheswyck on Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| How often do we use "You people" when praising another? |
In my unit in the military? Daily. With variants, of course. But daily. |
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