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Easter Clark
Joined: 18 Nov 2007
Location: Hiding from Yie Eun-woong
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 Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: "Reduced Speech is Wrong!" |
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I know a teacher who insists that I am doing students a disservice when I teach them little things like "gonna" or "wanna." Of course I teach them that these are commonly the spoken forms of "going to" and "want to." Yet she just said "Let's agree to disagree."
My view is that if we are teaching speaking and listening, we aren't doing our jobs unless we make our students aware of how people really speak. No one talks like a tape (except for some South African lady I know)!
Here's a link to an interesting paper written on the topic.
Do you ever address these issues in class? Is it really just "lazy English?" |
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I_Am_The_Kiwi
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Dam right students need to be aware of this. TEaching them, including it when you speak so they get used to it is really important i think.
What happens when they finally go to America and start actually speaking to people in English and get lost by all these shortened words.
Its 100% necessary for them to know it if they want to actually communicate in a real life situation. |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: "Reduced Speech is Wrong!" |
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| Easter Clark wrote: |
I know a teacher who insists that I am doing students a disservice when I teach them little things like "gonna" or "wanna." Of course I teach them that these are commonly the spoken forms of "going to" and "want to." Yet she just said "Let's agree to disagree."
My view is that if we are teaching speaking and listening, we aren't doing our jobs unless we make our students aware of how people really speak. No one talks like a tape (except for some South African lady I know)!
Here's a link to an interesting paper written on the topic.
Do you ever address these issues in class? Is it really just "lazy English?" |
Reduced forms of language are critical in students developing their speaking skills as native speakers do not use full phonemes in words when speaking. Textbook English, what your colleague is referring to, sound robotic and will cause students to not achieve their ultimate goal of native-like fluency. However, the students do need to know the clear distinction between speaking, writing, and readiing, that is, that it's okay to use reduced forms when speaking but it is not okay to use them when writing nor will they often find it in reading.
Perhaps your colleague needs some more experience in teaching EFL or perhaps s/he is one of the remaining dying breeds of prescriptivists that feels as though language is stagnant and withstanding of change. It is sad that today's English language is being "reduced" to simplified forms such as reduced forms, but that is part of life. With change in culture comes change in language; they are not mutually exclusive of one another. |
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bogey666
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Location: Korea, the ass free zone
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: "Reduced Speech is Wrong!" |
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| Easter Clark wrote: |
I know a teacher who insists that I am doing students a disservice when I teach them little things like "gonna" or "wanna." Of course I teach them that these are commonly the spoken forms of "going to" and "want to." Yet she just said "Let's agree to disagree."
My view is that if we are teaching speaking and listening, we aren't doing our jobs unless we make our students aware of how people really speak. No one talks like a tape (except for some South African lady I know)!
Here's a link to an interesting paper written on the topic.
Do you ever address these issues in class? Is it really just "lazy English?" |
I address them.
I tell my students (or better said my Korean co-teacher explains in Korean) when I truncate something or show them something that is slang.
I also make sure they know that certain things that are commonplace and acceptable between young people and friends are not in a more "formal" conversation. (as in with parents or teachers, etc)
My kids are getting into "what's up" these days... instead of mindlessly repeating..."how are you, I'm fine thank you".
I do feel it's important though to teach PROPER English, and then introduce more informal/commonplace forms if one wants to. |
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crusher_of_heads
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Location: kimbop and kimchi for kimberly!!!!
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm a bitof a purist, but your students are better off knowing the common form-if you're coteacher don't like it, coteacher can go straight to Helsinki! |
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losing_touch
Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Location: Ulsan - I think!
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Indeed, the suprasegmental aspects are very, very important. It is not lazy English. It is proper pronunciation. Reduction, linking, intonation, and everything else are critical for comprehensibility and communication. They are more important than the segmental aspects that are often focused much more heavily on. |
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jinks
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Location: Formerly: Lower North Island
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| I_Am_The_Kiwi wrote: |
What happens when they finally go to America and start actually speaking to people in English and get lost by all these shortened words.
Its 100% necessary for them to know it if they want to actually communicate in a real life situation. |
I don't explicitly teach reduced forms such as gonna and wanna etc. Other reduced forms (I'm, don't aren't etc.) are standard, and I do explicitly teach these forms.
Most Korean learners will use English in international rather than native-speaker environments. We are all becoming aware that there are now more second language English speakers than first language speakers; rather than aiming for native-like speech from our students, we would serve them better (I believe) if we equipped them with international English rather than any particular regional variety.
Most real-life English situations many of our students will encounter are more likely to happen here in Korea, or the wider Asian community with English as the lingua-franca. Unless students are explicitly going to North American or Commonwealth countries for study or work, regional varieties of first language speech will not be much use. If they are planning on living in English-speaking countries a good grounding in standard usages will serve them well for picking up local usages.
I'm not saying you shouldn't teach students non-standard forms, just don't focus on them too much. I have taught business writing classes and have been surprised at how many students pepper their complaint/adjustment letters, resumes and written proposals with 'gonna' and 'wanna'. These forms are appropriate in some circumstances, but hammering away at them in beginner English classes leads some students to believe they are appropriate everywhere - which they are not. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| They're using "wanna" all the time anyway, like "I wanna English well." Teach them how to use it properly (as a contraction of "want to", not a synonym for "want.") |
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Easter Clark
Joined: 18 Nov 2007
Location: Hiding from Yie Eun-woong
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| jinks wrote: |
| These forms are appropriate in some circumstances, but hammering away at them in beginner English classes leads some students to believe they are appropriate everywhere - which they are not. |
Only if you don't address the fact that this is casual, conversational English. Of course context has to be included when teaching any language points--the difference between "How ya doin?" and "How do you do?" for example. And always "Speaking--How ya doin? Writing--How are you doing?"
In my public school, the students may only use English when they see me, so I teach them how to interact with me both in and out of the classroom. But I also teach them what is appropriate when speaking more formally (through role-plays and such), even though most of them will likely never use English after high school unless they encounter a foreigner in Korea.
Also, this isn't just about only speaking to Native speakers. It's about being able to understand us as well. So teaching connected / reduced forms will go a long way towards improving listening comprehension. |
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Cornfed
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder how the idea that reduced forms are a mistake arose. Most languages have such forms. In Latin poetry, for example, they are fomalised so that not putting ellisions in the usual places would be a mistake and ruin the meter of the poem.
Was there any kind of linguistic explanation given for the idea that reduced forms are "lazy English"? |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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What I sometimes do is use the same text.
The first version is proper English, or should we say textbook English.
The second version is the spoken version of said text.
This often makes then understand the differences. |
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jinks
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Location: Formerly: Lower North Island
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Cornfed wrote: |
I wonder how the idea that reduced forms are a mistake arose...
Was there any kind of linguistic explanation given for the idea that reduced forms are "lazy English"? |
I'm not sure that anyone is arguing that reduced forms (in this case gonna and wanna) are wrong, or even lazy. The discussion is about how appropriate it is to focus on these forms in basic English classes. It is a fact that 'going to' often reduces to 'gonna' in informal speech, but this form is never used in written English outside of text messaging and maybe in reported speech that is trying to impart a dialect/informal mood. These forms do not occur in standard English texts or tests that our students are likely to be exposed to. For this reason, I suggest that a focus on this form in the classroom is misleading for students. Other reduced forms are commonplace and occur in both written and spoken English; these should be the reductions we pay the most attention to in the classroom, because these are the ones that will be the most useful to our students. |
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KoreanAmbition
Joined: 03 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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I show my students the "proper" way by the book. Then I use a contraction and say that's closer to English. Then I tell them how to REALLY say it as if they were native.
Most students know that "wanna" or "gonna" isn't proper. Heck, tons of my students are Masters level or PhD students and have written a thesis or dissertation. The problem is they focus so much on pronouncing each word properly, they don't realize that it's not natural. They aren't stupid, as your coteacher treats them.
Anything short of...
1) using contractions
2) cutting out letters
3) changing things like "want to" into "wanna"
4) and running a whole sentence together
... is teaching a student how to talk like a damn robot. OP, you're doing the right thing; your teacher is a fool. |
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Thiuda
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Religion ist f�r Sklaven geschaffen, f�r Wesen ohne Geist.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I also like "ain't." |
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Scott in Incheon
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Perhaps your colleague needs some more experience in teaching EFL or perhaps s/he is one of the remaining dying breeds of prescriptivists that feels as though language is stagnant and withstanding of change. It is sad that today's English language is being "reduced" to simplified forms such as reduced forms, but that is part of life. With change in culture comes change in language; they are not mutually exclusive of one another. |
I have a few years under my belt of EFL/ESL teaching and I would have to disagree with the teaching students to use reductions when they speak.
In listening, it would be quite necessary to teach them to listen for reductions as they need to understand them to communicate.
They don't have to be able to produce these reductions to communicate. In fact, when most SLL's use the reduction as a taught form it sounds odd. It doesn't sound naturally...I can tell they are actually saying the word 'gonna' rather than naturally reducing the phrase 'going to'. I think you are doing your students a disservice. Teach them the phrase and as their speaking becomes improves, then will begin to reduce the phrases naturally.
When taught as a word to be used in speech, students begin to believe they are 'proper English' and they start to include them in their academic and formal writing. This can be a real problem. |
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