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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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I think the term "war crime" is a meaningless term as it's the only phrase I can think of in the language that manages to be both a redundancy and an oxymoron simultaneously. Likewise, war crime trials are inevitably farcical because the victorious army will almost never apply the same standards to themselves and prosecute members of their own military.
Privateer, do you have some proof or evidence of McCain driopping bombs on civilian rather than military targets? |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| You think McCain was not thinking for himself? Wow. Just wow. The rest of your post displayed some incredibly strange assumptions, also. |
You obviously personally know very few people, if any, in power positions and about how to gain entry into the upper echelons without having accomplished anything worthwhile beforehand. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| You are obviously incredibly mistaken. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:32 am Post subject: |
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I applaud privateer for asking this question and to me he is the hero.
It is precisely these questions, these "deus ex machina" that must be faced and we need those brave enough to sit outside our own cultural bubble and ask them, pose them.
Please watch "Hearts and Minds". It addresses this question in a very fundamental way. (with scores of bombers interviewed). The silences in this film are where the truth REALLY is.
http://www.mininova.org/tor/431730 I'll seed for free.
I do hope that at least one American has the balls to ask and confront McCain about this. At least one person won't go blindly in line to the pied pipers tune....... We should ask of our leaders to "do the right thing". Did McCain?
DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| Well obviously to some on here I am completely crazy and incapable of rational thought for even asking the question, but McCain dropped bombs on heavily populated parts of Hanoi. Civilians were not the target, granted, but there certainly were a lot of civilians casualties as a result, as everybody well knew. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| Well obviously to some on here I am completely crazy and incapable of rational thought for even asking the question, but McCain dropped bombs on heavily populated parts of Hanoi. Civilians were not the target, granted, but there certainly were a lot of civilians casualties as a result, as everybody well knew. |
Alright, Privateer. I'll act as defense council for John Sidney McCain.
You need to answer us this first: who has jurisdiction?
This is important. You need to find a violation of some sort of international agreement with which to charge McCain. It need not be an international agreement the U.S. was a party to (we'll get to that later), but it needs to have been at least a multilateral agreement, and one of more than mere principles.
You're going to have lots of trouble. The Rome Statute of the ICC was not established until 1998.
So you'll probably have to retreat to the Geneva Conventions. GCIV concerns treatment of civilians in time of war, and since the US was a signatory, by Article II it is bound to all provisions regardless of Vietnam's status as a signatory.
There's your jurisdiction. I've answered the question for you. If you can find other jurisdiction be my guest, but I will argue fairly forcefully that the ICC cannot convene to judge conflicts that have ended long before its creation.
You now have the resources at your fingertips. Under what violations of GCIV will you charge John McCain. This should be interesting, as I do not even know if you can charge individuals under Geneva. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| Well obviously to some on here I am completely crazy and incapable of rational thought for even asking the question, but McCain dropped bombs on heavily populated parts of Hanoi. Civilians were not the target, granted, but there certainly were a lot of civilians casualties as a result, as everybody well knew. |
"There are no innocent civilians, so it doesn't bother me so much to be killing innocent bystanders," General Curtis LeMay.
You have to be kidding me Privateer. It was war. Civilians die. |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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My initial response was merely a guess, as often as not a lot of people gain entry to power positions through their family ties. Whether or not you consider the rank of admiral or brigadier (or president) a high position is up to you. I do. And I don't like how the son gains the father's prestige merely for being the son and so on and on into perpetuity.
I checked and lo and behold ...
"His father John S. McCain, Sr. was also a four-star admiral in the Navy, and his son John S. McCain III is a former naval aviator who retired with the rank of Captain and is currently a United States Senator representing Arizona, and as of August 2008 is the presumptive Republican nominee for the office of President of the United States. His uncle (his father's brother) was U.S. Army Brigadier General William Alexander McCain. Grandson John S. McCain IV is currently attending the United States Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland, the fourth-generation John S. McCain to do so."
It's all in the family. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| There's your jurisdiction. I've answered the question for you. If you can find other jurisdiction be my guest, but I will argue fairly forcefully that the ICC cannot convene to judge conflicts that have ended long before its creation. |
The jurisdiction is the courthouse of the human heart. That's where right/wrong battle and that's also a part of any election and any country coming to terms with its herstory.
Watch "Hearts and Minds" and you'll get a good idea of McCain through the genocidal (and culturally applauded in many ways) words of hero of the nation- George Thomas Coker. As did McCain, he believe Vietnamese to be "slow" "stupid" "backward" yadda yadda - "But a beautiful country except for the people!".
Bombs (and lies) were not the worst. Pilots also delivered chemicals which killed hundreds of thousands and left many more permanently disfigured/pained. Genocide by any name. How can you have as the head of a nation someone who just "did his job" like a robot and never thought with his heart? Who couldn't judge right from wrong but who simply (like Iran and Bomb, bomb, bomb!) thought he wasn't killing people but savages, less than humans, gooks? Is that who we want deciding issues of military significance - not having a level head about the value of ALL human life?
Forget all the semantics. McCain had a choice unlike so many of the grunts. He chose to kill people from above, probably thousands by his own hand. The real heroes were the millions of American soldiers called up and who said, "NO". Or who returned and realized all the lies and didn't use service to political advantage.
DD |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Forget all the semantics. |
Wow. Contemptuous of International Law. A little surprised to hear that.
| ddeubel wrote: |
| The jurisdiction is the courthouse of the human heart. |
Oh, how special! The accuser and accused can thus be anyone, and the verdict need not accord with norms of justice or the analysis of wise justices handed down over many years. We can just ddispense with all that.
Because we have the courthouse of the human heart. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| The jurisdiction is the courthouse of the human heart. |
Jesus Christ on a popsicle stick. Somebody get me a violin.
And, just because I now want to know. What are the rules of evidence here, Ddeubel?
GG |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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Jesus Christ on a popsicle stick. Somebody get me a violin.
And, just because I now want to know. What are the rules of evidence here, Ddeubel?
GG |
So you guys have no respect for "We the people"? Or an election? (just a referendum of "the heart".
Gopher, you'd march along knee deep into hell if the good old boys asked you to. Automaton and nothing free or thinking about your position on this.
McCain too. And I don't think anyone should want such a reckless type, an unconscionable, so near the button. McCain is another Ahmandinejad by any astute analysis.
DD |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Give the man his due: He rose from near the bottom of his class to near the top of his party (behind Sarah Palin) - kinda like cream (or scum, if you consider the Republican Party to be like a polluted pond ...) |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
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Jesus Christ on a popsicle stick. Somebody get me a violin.
And, just because I now want to know. What are the rules of evidence here, Ddeubel?
GG |
So you guys have no respect for "We the people"? Or an election? (just a referendum of "the heart".
Gopher, you'd march along knee deep into hell if the good old boys asked you to. Automaton and nothing free or thinking about your position on this.
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No, DD, I'd just like that you not take the moral highground as an intellectual shortcut.
If you cannot find a provision indicting McCain in International Law, at least ask why that might be.
My challenge to Privateer stands. I've taken his idea seriously. |
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