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Korean Job Discussion Forums "The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Location: Easy Street.
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:03 am Post subject: |
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Well the US is signatory to the Fourth Geneva Convention which, among other things, states that...
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm
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1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.
To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; (Article 3) |
Civilians working in factories may possibly be deemed to be taking an active part in the war but children, at least, can not be.
Also, were Hanoi's hospitals respected?
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Civilian hospitals organized to give care to the wounded and sick, the infirm and maternity cases, may in no circumstances be the object of attack, but shall at all times be respected and protected by the Parties to the conflict.
States which are Parties to a conflict shall provide all civilian hospitals with certificates showing that they are civilian hospitals and that the buildings which they occupy are not used for any purpose which would deprive these hospitals of protection in accordance with Article 19.
Civilian hospitals shall be marked by means of the emblem provided for in Article 38 of the Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field of August 12, 1949, but only if so authorized by the State.
The Parties to the conflict shall, in so far as military considerations permit, take the necessary steps to make the distinctive emblems indicating civilian hospitals clearly visible to the enemy land, air and naval forces in order to obviate the possibility of any hostile action.
In view of the dangers to which hospitals may be exposed by being close to military objectives, it is recommended that such hospitals be situated as far as possible from such objectives.
(Article 18) |
So we may argue that the US is legally and morally bound to uphold these provisions of the Convention simply because it agreed to. One should honour agreements. But I think the reason for honouring these provisions is much more compelling than that and that is the reason the US signed it in the first place: because such appalling acts of horror have been committed during wartime that we want to be able to condemn those who commit such acts; because we want to send a message out that there is justice somewhere in the world for the perpetrators and for their defenseless victims; and justice demands that we apply the same standards to ourselves as to our enemies, or we have no right to consider ourselves any better.
Regard for the defenseless civilian populations led FDR to write this letter:
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Appeal of President Franklin D. Roosevelt on Aerial Bombardment of Civilian Populations, September 1, 1939
The President of the United States to the Governments of France, Germany, Italy, Poland and His Britannic Majesty, September 1, 1939
The ruthless bombing from the air of civilians in unfortified centers of population during the course of the hostilities which have raged in various quarters of the earth during the past few years, which has resulted in the maiming and in the death of thousands of defenseless men, women, and children, has sickened the hearts of every civilized man and woman, and has profoundly shocked the conscience of humanity.
If resort is had to this form of inhuman barbarism during the period of the tragic conflagration with which the world is now confronted, hundreds of thousands of innocent human beings who have no responsibility for, and who are not even remotely participating in, the hostilities which have now broken out, will lose their lives. I am therefore addressing this urgent appeal to every government which may be engaged in hostilities publicly to affirm its determination that its armed forces shall in no event, and under no circumstances, undertake the bombardment from the air of civilian populations or of unfortified cities, upon the understanding that these same rules of warfare will be scrupulously observed by all of their opponents. I request an immediate reply.
FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT |
As you may know, 'Bomber' Harris, the head of Bomber Command in WW2, is also sometimes accused of being a war criminal. This is a quote from one of the RAF bombers of Dresden:
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| It struck me at the time, the thought of the women and children down there. We seemed to fly for hours over a sheet of fire - a terrific red glow with thin haze over it. I found myself making comments to the crew: "Oh God, those poor people." It was completely uncalled for. You can't justify it. |
Would any court convict McCain of being a war criminal?
More to the point, for those of us with consciences that operate regardless of how international courts decide, do you think he is a war criminal? |
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The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
Would any court convict McCain of being a war criminal?
More to the point, for those of us with consciences that operate regardless of how international courts decide, do you think he is a war criminal? |
The answer is "No."
You were asked to show it. You did not. Now put your toys away and come back tomorrow with some better games to play.
If you have some evidence to show that John McCain did other than what soldiers ordinarily do in wartime, come to us with that. As of now, you are doing little else than indicting every soldier of every army at any time in history as a war criminal.
That means you are wasting your time, which is your choice.
It also means you are wasting other people's time, and it's only going to happen as long as we allow it. I, for one, have decided I don't have time in my day for you anymore.
In wartime, soldiers are supposed to do things that would be criminal in any other time or place. It sucks, but it's the world, and that's why a responsible nation does not go to war on whims, or lies, or wishful thinking or stock market projections. A just nation, and a smart one, goes to war only when it has to. And this war we are waging in Iraq in right now was never necessary. John McCain supported it, and he still does. That is reason enough that he should not be president.
I'm not voting for McCain, just to be clear. But I'm not voting against him, either. This year I have a chance to actually vote FOR a candidate, instead of just hoping to prevent his opponent from getting in.
Here's a little secret: if the democrats had picked someone I didn't like, I just might have gone for McCain, even though I've never voted Republican in my life. He's a politician, which means he's a shithell, but he's not nearly as bad as a lot of other shitheels out there. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| Have to agree with you there Bob. Well-put. |
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kotakji
Joined: 23 Oct 2006
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
So you guys have no respect for "We the people"? Or an election? (just a referendum of "the heart".
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An election and a conviction are dissimilar cases DD, the burden of proof demanded to achieve a promotion lies with the applicant. Conversely the burden of proof in a trial lies with those laying charges.
Claiming McCain is unfit to be elevated to president because you believe playing a combat role in the air force is immoral is your prerogative.
However, charging him with war crimes places the burden on you to find and prove which laws, treaties, agreements or what have you he violated. Being immoral is not illegal. |
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ReeseDog

Joined: 05 Apr 2008 Location: Classified
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
| Give the man his due: He rose from near the bottom of his class to near the top of his party (behind Sarah Palin) - kinda like cream (or scum, if you consider the Republican Party to be like a polluted pond ...) |
There it is. We knew it was coming. Libs figured out that they can't touch Palin, so it's back to insulting McCain. |
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spliff

Joined: 19 Jan 2004 Location: Khon Kaen, Thailand
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| McCain/wife and VP are rock solid...The Obammessiah reminds me of the straw man blubbering a lot of nonsense. |
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ReeseDog

Joined: 05 Apr 2008 Location: Classified
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| spliff wrote: |
| McCain/wife and VP are rock solid...The Obammessiah reminds me of the straw man blubbering a lot of nonsense. |
'Bout damn time you showed up!
Excellent post, by the way. |
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bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| If he is not already, he will become one once elected. |
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RJjr

Joined: 17 Aug 2006 Location: Turning on a Lamp
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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John McCain is definitely a war hero.
Most French soldiers in 1940 put in more than 20 combat hours before surrendering themselves to German soldiers, and most didn't get any awards.
John McCain put in 20 combat hours before surrendering to Vietnamese civilians. For that he got 28 medals.
McCain = 28
Most French soldiers = 0
Who's the hero? John McCain. |
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kotakji
Joined: 23 Oct 2006
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| RJjr wrote: |
John McCain is definitely a war hero.
Most French soldiers in 1940 put in more than 20 combat hours before surrendering themselves to German soldiers, and most didn't get any awards.
John McCain put in 20 combat hours before surrendering to Vietnamese civilians. For that he got 28 medals.
McCain = 28
Most French soldiers = 0
Who's the hero? John McCain. |
Hardly fair Id say. Most soldiers with 20 combat hours in the US would have some medals (unit citations at the least) certainly every one who went through McCain's ordeal would come through with a few. You do realize that, in the US, medals are awarded for a wide array of accomplishments. |
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RJjr

Joined: 17 Aug 2006 Location: Turning on a Lamp
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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Why compare Maverick McCain to soldiers who won only a few medals? McCain won 28 medals in 20 hours. It took Audie Murphy 1943, 1944, and 1945 to win 33 medals despite superhuman bravery and combat skill. Yet, hour for hour, Maverick McCain is probably the most decorated soldier in military history.
Here's how Audie Murphy won his 33 medals:
Audie Murphy's combat initiation finally came when he took part in the liberation of Sicily on July 10, 1943. Shortly after arriving, Murphy was promoted to corporal after killing two Italian officers as they tried to escape on horseback. He contracted malaria while in Sicily, an illness which put him in the hospital several times during his Army years.
After Sicily was secured from the Germans, the 3rd Division invaded the Italian mainland, landing near Salerno in September 1943. While leading a night patrol, Murphy and his men ran into German soldiers but fought their way out of an ambush, taking cover in a rock quarry. The German command sent a squad of soldiers in but they were stopped by intense machine-gun and rifle fire: Three German soldiers were killed and several others captured. As a result of his actions at Salerno, Murphy was promoted to sergeant.
Murphy distinguished himself in combat on many occasions while in Italy, fighting at the Volturno River, at the Anzio beachhead, and in the cold, wet Italian mountains. While in Italy, his skills as a combat infantryman earned him promotions and decorations for valor.
Following its participation in the Italian campaign, the 3rd Division invaded Southern France on August 15, 1944 (Operation Anvil-Dragoon). Shortly thereafter, Murphy's best friend, Lattie Tipton was killed by a German soldier in a machine gun nest who was feigning surrender. Murphy went into a rage, and single-handedly wiped out the German machine gun crew which had just killed his friend. He then used the German machine gun and grenades to destroy several other nearby enemy positions. For this act, Murphy received the Distinguished Service Cross. During seven weeks of fighting in that campaign in France, Murphy's division suffered 4,500 casualties.
Just weeks later, he received two Silver Stars for further heroic actions. Murphy, by now a staff sergeant and holding the position of Platoon Sergeant, was eventually awarded a battlefield commission to second lieutenant, which elevated him to the Platoon Leader position. He was wounded in the hip by a sniper's ricocheting bullet 12 days after the promotion and spent ten weeks recuperating. Within days of returning to his unit, and still bandaged, he became company commander (January 25, 1945), and suffered further wounds from a mortar round which killed two others nearby.
The next day, January 26 (the temperature was 14 �F (−10 �C) with 24 inches (61 cm) of snow on the ground), the battle at Holtzwihr (France) began with Murphy's unit at an effective strength of 19 out of 128. Murphy sent all of his men to the rear while he took pot-shots at the Germans until out of ammunition. He then proceeded to use an abandoned, burning tank destroyer's .50 caliber machine gun to cut into the German infantry at a distance, including one full squad of German infantry that had crawled in a ditch to within 100 feet of his position. Wounded in the leg during heavy fire, he continued this nearly single-handed battle for almost an hour. His focus on the battle before him stopped only when his telephone line to the artillery fire direction center was cut by either U.S. or German artillery. As his remaining men came forward, he quickly organized them to conduct a counter attack, which ultimately drove the enemy away from Holtzwihr. These actions earned Murphy the Medal of Honor. |
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