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Sweden bans religion in schools.
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ED209

Joined: 17 Oct 2006

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject:

wannago wrote:

I could spit out the evolution lie as well as anyone, which allowed me to do well on my exams.

Yeah, best stick to the truth. God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!

How?

God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!God did it!

If you're a doubter under micro biology, there's a simple solution to this debate, don't go to Sweden! And, don't have any more kids!!

JMO

Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject:

mindmetoo wrote:

JMO wrote:

mindmetoo wrote:

OneWayTraffic wrote:

I was thinking what JMO and Deadman are saying.

You do have the right to teach your kids whatever religion you have. But there have to be limits. Schools whether public or private need to pass certain standards. They are to prepare people for useful lives in society, not for indoctrination.

I think private schools should be able to teach nearly anything, save for training kids to commit crimes (training young terrorists, training kids to kill abortion doctors, etc.). At the same time, universities are totally free to reject a religious school's curriculum. You want to be a doctor? You need to study biology. Evolution is the foundation of modern biology. A university is free to reject applicants if they come from schools that don't teach evolution.

Do we really need to make every thread about evolution? Bye, bye thread.

In America, at least, that's the first part of the wedge, no? Get evolution out of schools.

I thought this thread was about Sweden. As entertaining as those evolution threads are, they get boring after a while. I'd rather not see every single bloody thread about religion get dragged into an argument about evolution.

ED209

Joined: 17 Oct 2006

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:19 pm Post subject:

Sweden also doesn't have a separation of church and state. Though it has a state religion in the Church of Sweden it remains secular. Over the pond the US is founded on secular values yet remains one of the most deeply religious western nations. Maybe the US needs a state church, then people can not turn up and free themselves from superstition through apathy and indifference.

mindmetoo

Joined: 02 Feb 2004

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:25 am Post subject:

JMO wrote:

mindmetoo wrote:

JMO wrote:

mindmetoo wrote:

OneWayTraffic wrote:

Do we really need to make every thread about evolution? Bye, bye thread.

In America, at least, that's the first part of the wedge, no? Get evolution out of schools.

The debate has progressed from Sweden to a general rule about what any society should or should not allow in private schools. My evolution example was but an example of how one can have the market place of ideas in education but ensure society doesn't go off the rails. If a person wants to push a broom post high school believing the atoms in that broom are no older than 6,000 years old, great. But many people go to high school with an eye towards a higher education. Universities stake their reputations on turning out good scientists. Universities will ensure private education doesn't largely go off the rails.

Last edited by mindmetoo on Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

ED209

Joined: 17 Oct 2006

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:40 am Post subject:

If this spreads to the UK it'll be the end of Hogwarts. Dumbledore will be lead away by police for warning his students about the dangers of faeries.

Pluto

Joined: 19 Dec 2006

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:28 am Post subject:

JMO wrote:

Pluto wrote:

JMO wrote:

so, again. Should a school be allowed to teach anything it wants as long as its a private school?

Yes, but this has less to do with my religious views and more to do with my views on individual rights. Wannago is right, government should keep itself out of private affairs.

So it would be ok, for example for me to teach kids that America is the great satan? And to at least hint that it would be a good idea to give up their lives fighting the great satan?

Because you know, you said I could teach anything..

Sure, teach whatever you want to. If you want to open a school a teach your students how evil America is, have at it. Though this requires finding students and parents who agree with your philosophy; there is a profit motive at work here. As for hinting about destroying or killing anything or anyone, that would be conspiracy and you could be tried and sent to jail as you have proven yourself a threat to others' individual rights.

JMO

Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject:

Pluto wrote:

JMO wrote:

Pluto wrote:

JMO wrote:

so, again. Should a school be allowed to teach anything it wants as long as its a private school?

Yes, but this has less to do with my religious views and more to do with my views on individual rights. Wannago is right, government should keep itself out of private affairs.

Sure, teach whatever you want to. If you want to open a school a teach your students how evil America is, have at it. Though this requires finding
students and parents who agree with your philosophy; there is a profit motive at work here. As for hinting about destroying or killing anything or anyone, that would be conspiracy and you could be tried and sent to jail as you have proven yourself a threat to others' individual rights.

How? If it is part of my religious beliefs that the west is evil and it is also part of my religious beliefs that martyrs go automatically to heaven, that is hint enough. You would have a hard time proving conspiracy. In most muslim rich European countries, this kind of school would be profitable.

At some point you have to standardize what schools teach and give every child a chance. It seems the parents right to indoctrinate their children at all times is superseding the child's right to an education. It's nice to see Sweden reverse that .

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:12 pm Post subject:

ED209 wrote:

wannago wrote:

I could spit out the evolution lie as well as anyone, which allowed me to do well on my exams.

What an obnoxious post.

mindmetoo

Joined: 02 Feb 2004

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject:

JMO wrote:

[How? If it is part of my religious beliefs that the west is evil and it is also part of my religious beliefs that martyrs go automatically to heaven, that is hint enough. You would have a hard time proving conspiracy. In most muslim rich European countries, this kind of school would be profitable.

In most Western European countries (as in Canada) there are laws against hate speech. I would assume it would not be too hard to extend that to a private school teaching hate. If they are teaching muslims are evil and a new crusade is necessary, that should fall under existing hate speech laws. There would be clear examples of hate speech and grey areas and a court would decide. Your solution would not rescue society from this either. There would be clear examples of schools not following the standard and some schools in a grey area. And then a court has to decide.

Quote:

At some point you have to standardize what schools teach and give every child a chance. It seems the parents right to indoctrinate their children at all times is superseding the child's right to an education. It's nice to see Sweden reverse that .

The kids have to go home some time. The parents can easily counter anything the school teaches with "its a pack of lies". If religious private schools are turning out haters, those ignorant of science, whatever, then the market will take care of it. Those kids won't get jobs. Those kids won't get into university.

JMO

Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject:

mindmetoo wrote:

It would be very hard to classify as hate speech if it was taught in the right way. The Swedish solution is simple and elegant. You take all religion out of school and you solve any problems that might come up at the start.

Quote:

the kids have to go home some time. The parents can easily counter anything the school teaches with "its a pack of lies". If religious private schools are turning out haters, those ignorant of science, whatever, then the market will take care of it. Those kids won't get jobs. Those kids won't get into university.

Except for evolution(and this in only a minority of Christians i have met), there is not much in the standard school curriculum that even a hardcore god lover would object to.

The only difference is that schools wouldn't teach religion. Again, it is a solution that solves any potential problem at the root.

nateium

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Location: Seoul

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject:

God bless the Swedes :wink:for rational thinking and protecting children. I heard they've also banned advertising aimed at minors. If it wasn't for muslim immigrants, that country would be a chilly utopia.

ED209

Joined: 17 Oct 2006

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:19 am Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

What an obnoxious post.

Yes.

mindmetoo

Joined: 02 Feb 2004

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:03 am Post subject:

JMO wrote:

I guess we'll have to differ on our ideas of how far the state can intrude in our private lives. You seem content the state won't let you send your children to a private school because it teaches a certain philosophy. I'm not comfortable with that, save for clear examples of teaching hate, and prefer the market place of ideas to let these schools be a minority.

Quote:

Except for evolution(and this in only a minority of Christians i have met), there is not much in the standard school curriculum that even a hardcore god lover would object to.

Other than personal opinion, what do you base that opinion on? Science class is a problem for many hardcore christians, and not just evolution. A literal belief the world is 6,000 years old is problematic for astronomy and physics. I've heard religious people express concern math teaches there are no absolutes. Hunks of math will have to go. History. Hmmm. Some problems there. Lots of good christians were involved in the slave trade. That might have to be tweeked.

The only difference is that schools wouldn't teach religion. Again, it is a solution that solves any potential problem at the root.[/quote]

JMO

Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:20 am Post subject:

mindmetoo wrote:

I know a lot of hardcore catholics and none of them had a problem sending their children(me and my cousins) to a school that taught standard science(including evolution). I suspect this is only a big problem in the states. Indeed my parents and older relatives have a deep respect for science in general which resulted in quite a few people in my extended family(my sister included) pursuing careers in science and medicine.

Quote:

Fair enough. Again I suspect this is a north american/european thing.

mindmetoo

Joined: 02 Feb 2004

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:49 am Post subject:

JMO wrote:

I know a lot of hardcore catholics and none of them had a problem sending their children(me and my cousins) to a school that taught standard science(including evolution).

Given Pope John Paul II has stated there is no problem with evolution and Pope Palpatine has somewhat backstopped that opinion, I would not be surprised catholics generally have no problem with evolution. Catholic priests don't preach from the pulpit about the evils of evolution. Jesuits produce fine scientists. Big Bang was owned by a catholic priest.

My point is actually there are many things fundamentalists protestant Christians (and even some catholics) would want removed from schools. Evolution is merely the thin edge of the wedge.

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