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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| Ok, so the Palin pick was genius, it seems. It's the culture wars, stupid? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| It's the culture wars, stupid? |
I think that has a lot to do with it. Pay particular attn to how the left is constructing this, even in the MTV link you posted: "Is America ready to elect a black president?", for example. B. Obama even has Oprah on his side, no? |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: ... |
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| I think that has a lot to do with it. Pay particular attn to how the left is constructing this, even in the MTV link you posted: "Is America ready to elect a black president?", for example. B. Obama even has Oprah on his side, no? |
That's why, if McCain had any yarbles at all, he'd have gotten a sex change. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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It's hard to keep up with conservative newspeak as the redefine old words. There was a time when elitist meant fat cat Republicans who didn't want women to vote, blacks to have civil rights, unions to struggle for safety at work and decent pay... |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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It is not a redefinition of the word. "Elitist" and "elite" refer to different things. The former tends to refer to smug people often in the professional classes, in Academe, and in Hollywood, who tend to dismiss the people's beliefs and generally look down on the masses as in need of their guidance. B. and M. Obama: lawyers. Typical elitist stuff.
See? Even leading Democrats understand it.
Sometimes elitists articulate their views very, very condescendingly. M. Moore's calling Americans the stupidest people on Earth, for example.
"Elite," on the other hand, refers to the highest-standing members of a group, politically, financially, what-have-you. Not necessarily elitist in their outlook. W. Buffett seems an elite but not an elitist to me. J. McCain, too. That is why I support him in this campaign. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
It is not a redefinition of the word. "Elitist" and "elite" refer to different things. The former tends to refer to smug people often in the professional classes, in Academe, and in Hollywood, who tend to dismiss the people's beliefs and generally look down on the masses as in need of their guidance. B. and M. Obama: lawyers. Typical elitist stuff.
See? Even leading Democrats understand it.
Sometimes elitists articulate their views very, very condescendingly. M. Moore's calling Americans the stupidest people on Earth, for example.
"Elite," on the other hand, refers to the highest-standing members of a group, politically, financially, what-have-you. Not necessarily elitist in their outlook. W. Buffett seems an elite but not an elitist to me. J. McCain, too. That is why I support him in this campaign. |
That's right, Ya-Ta. Elite means someone that we admire for their accomplishments and their lifestyle. Elitist is someone we resent for their accomplishments and their lifestyle.
There may be some differences based on political views, but that's purely incidental.  |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Elite means someone that we admire for their accomplishments and their lifestyle. Elitist is someone we resent for their accomplishments and their lifestyle. |
Not at all. But I do not see the point in attempting to straighten you guys out on this further.
Why not, instead, just test yourselves? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Elite means someone that we admire for their accomplishments and their lifestyle. Elitist is someone we resent for their accomplishments and their lifestyle. |
Not at all. But I do not see the point in attempting to straighten you guys out on this further.
Why not, instead, just test yourselves? |
Apparently I'm a book and language snob. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Ha. That makes two. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Elitist is someone we resent for their accomplishments and their lifestyle.
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Did you see that British douchebag on MTV last night? The guy is both a nobody and an elitist. You can be a rig pig with a New Yorker under your arms and a "hope" bumpersticker and be an elitist. Opposite of this, you can be a hyper successful anything (Bruce Willis in Hollywood, Victor Davis Hanson in academia, Stephen Harper in politics etc) and not be an elitist. In hockey there is Brett Hull and Jeremy Ronick who are elitists -and generally detested - and guys like Ryan Smyth who aren't.
It is a matter of perspective, not accomplishment.
Today's FT has an article by Clive Crook on this subject. It is currently behind a subscription barrier. I'll post it when it is free. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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All right. I just consulted with three full professors. They all agree that "elite" and "elitist" represent different things. An elitist is exactly how Mises and I are using it. The elite, on the other hand, tend to represent the highest level of any particular class -- aristocrats or Navy SEALs, for example. Elites can sometimes be elitists but they are not necessarily so. Also, elitists are not necessarily elites, as Mises shows in his example of the MTV scumbag.
Take it or leave it, reject it, continue to play dumb. But J. McCain, H. Clinton, Mises, myself, and the three full professors I just consulted all seem to agree on meaning and usage.
So KMAAS, baby. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: ... |
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| Quote: |
| The former tends to refer to smug people often in the professional classes, in Academe, and in Hollywood, who tend to dismiss the people's beliefs and generally look down on the masses as in need of their guidance. |
| Quote: |
| I do not see the point in attempting to straighten you guys out on this further. |
| Quote: |
| All right. I just consulted with three full professors. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| All right. I just consulted with three full professors. They all agree that "elite" and "elitist" represent different things. An elitist is exactly how Mises and I are using it. The elite, on the other hand, tend to represent the highest level of any particular class -- aristocrats or Navy SEALs, for example. Elites can sometimes be elitists but they are not necessarily so. Also, elitists are not necessarily elites, as Mises shows in his example of the MTV scumbag. |
Maybe.
But on the other hand the judgment calls are entirely subjective and not a little based on perspective.
Al Gore: elitist or elite? Depends on who you ask.
John McCain: elitist or elite? Depends on whether you caught him during his internment days, his wife-upgrading days, his Gang of 14 days, or his Keating Five days. And depending on who you ask, they'll cite only some of the above.
My point was that the GOP every four years loves to trot out its strawman liberal elitist and burn him on the convention floor's rhetoric pyre. To a certain extent the Dems do this, too. But that process does not by itself create an elitist.
In the context of politics, I stand by my definition, which is more meaningful because it demonstrates the meaninglessness of the term used when in politics. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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You are looking to define it as a lawyer.
I am referring to cultural usage.
Apples and oranges, probably. |
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