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beck's
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
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 Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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I am not sure that the problems caused by radical Islam have been created or made worse by the actions of the west as desultude suggests. There are many, many wars in the world. If we look at many of them we can see that radical Islam is a constant. For example:
Muslims versus Hindus and Sikhs in India
Muslims versus Christians in Nigeria
Muslims versus the Chinese in Xingjiang Province (China has no troops in the Mid-East but suffers from Muslim terrorism)
Muslims versus the Brits in London (granted the Brits are involved in Iraq)
Muslims versus the Spanish in Spain
Muslims versus Buddhists in southern Thailand
Muslims versus the French in the banlieu of Paris (France is anti Iraqi War and often anti-American)
Muslims versus gay politicians and film makers in Holland
Muslims versus cartoonists in Denmark
Muslims versus backpackers in Bali
Muslims versus the Russians in Chechnya
Muslims pepetuating genocide in the Sudan
So, my question is this. Why is it that all over the world, where ever Muslims are living, are there wars and terrorist activity? Radical Islam is the constant factor in all of this. Future historians will see what we are going through now as the Third World War. I am convinced of this. I am equally convinced that we should not allow any more of the "barbarians" within our gates. The ancient Romans made a similar mistake and it was their downfall. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| beck's wrote: |
| Muslims versus the Chinese in Xingjiang Province (China has no troops in the Mid-East but suffers from Muslim terrorism) |
That parenthetical is silly. Islam has spread beyond the Middle East, unless you think Indonesia is an archipelago in the Persian Gulf. The uighers and their Islamic ways pre-date the Chinese Communist Party. The uighers are hardly a hostile people, having been the traders who were the key middle link in the Silk Road.
I am pretty sure that the Chinese are a significant if not the predominant cause of Islamic radicalization in Xinjiang. You have to be careful here. Your argument is not that all Muslims are suicide bombers, but that almost all the suicide bombers are Muslims.
Also, I think Desultude's post was excellent. It seems like some of the posters here have given up on us as mere masturbators, but at least she can still summon a powerful sociological-political explanation of the ills of the region without playing the Palestine Occupation C(an)ard. |
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beck's
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Radical Islam is alive and well in Xingjiang Province and recent terrorist acts there have been aimed at trains and aircraft. My point is that Radical Islam is a worldwide phenomenon which fosters discord and violence whenever and where ever it gains demographic strength.
It's easy to blame the Chinese for the recent violence in Xingjiang. It is just as easy to blame the Dutch, the Danes, the Hindus, the Russians, the Jews, the Christians, the French and the backpackers of Bali for the terrorist activities aimed at them. It serves no purpose and is counter productive to long term world peace to blame everyone but Muslims for the violence in the world.
My point is that fundementalist Islam is a violent religion in an of itself. It needs no provocation. I am beginning to realize that even moderate muslims support many of the activities of their radical brethren. They are refusing to reign in or to cull the most violent members from their religion. They are refusing to reform their religion and I am starting to believe that deep down this is because they respect the violent jihadists. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| beck's wrote: |
It's easy to blame the Chinese for the recent violence in Xingjiang. It is just as easy to blame the Dutch, the Danes, the Hindus, the Russians, the Jews, the Christians, the French and the backpackers of Bali for the terrorist activities aimed at them. |
I'm not blaming the Chinese. I'm saying that you haven't made the requisite case for why Islam is inherently problematic. All you've done is make a checklist of different flashpoints of violence where Muslim populations are involved. I notice Bosnia-Heregovinia didn't make it on that list. I wonder why?
And no, its not just as easy to blame the Danes for sketching and publishing a provocative cartoon as it is to blame the Chinese for inter-ethnic tension in Xinjiang. For awhile, separatist movements in Xinjiang were focused on hitting only military targets. But a Chinese crackdown pushed the separatists out of Xinjiang and into the arms of more radical elements. And no, that's not blaming the Chinese, as obviously terrorists are terrorists. The point is that the Chinese, like the Americans, have not been handling the threat in the optimum way possible.
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| It serves no purpose and is counter productive to long term world peace to blame everyone but Muslims for the violence in the world. |
Well, then its a good thing that only your strawman does that then.  |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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For the record, Kuros, I don't include you in the complete-effing-w@nker category. 
I enjoyed des's post, and you too are writing very sanely on this issue. If there were more of this kind of discussion (and I had less children), I might w@nk about here more often myself.  |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
I would like to see the US try these things.
1. The Palestinians rejected it
2. We cant let them get to far, or they will be unstrikable due to radiation Hazards
3. We have been
4. and make people pay even more for gas? do you WANT another great depression? nonsense.
5. With a busted econmy from #4 idea, #5 wouldnt really be possible.
6. Since when does Europe listen to anything we say?
7. That goes agaisnt our core values
8. no point
9. and start a war with the kurds and turkey? not a good idea
10.You really think the ban stopped the CIA?
11. We already have nuclear weapons. There would be no point.
How would withdrawing from a treaty not to develop nukes do anything when we have nukes already?
1) Bring back the Clinton mideast plan. ( In fact make Bill Clinton US envoy to the middle east. That way he won't make trouble back home. )
2) Don't attack Iran- not now anyway.
3) Talk to Iran and Syria.
4) Tax imported oil , raise the gas tax
5) Invest in alternative energy , clean coal , nuclear power, better exploration methods with the same effort that the US put in to winning WW II.
6) Pressure the Europeans to , in fact apply horrible pressure to Europe to list Hezzbollah as a terror group.
7) Make the Patriot act permanent.
8 ) Introduce a national ID card like Korea has
9) Set up permanent US military bases in the Kurdish areas.
10) End the CIA ban on assassinations. From now on anyone of note who calls for holy war against the US is legitimate target for assassination. Anyone of note who funds Al Qaeda is a legitimate target for assassination.
11) announce that the US will withdraw from the NPT treaty if Iran tests a nuclear bomb.
12) Do NOT agree to any treaty that limits the deployment of space weapons.
13 ) Fully invest in the next generation of weapon systems.
If the US were to do the above what would the results be? I would bet you all that the US would be in a much better strategic situation than now.
Maybe more would need to be done later - in the end it has to be whatever it takes - but the above would be a start. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| 1. The Palestinians rejected it |
try again .They have different leaders
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| 2. We cant let them get to far, or they will be unstrikable due to radiation Hazards |
2.
Build the right weapons
Iran is responsible for what happens if they continue their war.
keep it up
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| 4. and make people pay even more for gas? do you WANT another great depression? nonsense. |
Yes to get the US off foreign oil Americans ought to pay more for gas.
The US can use the tax revenues for alternative energy.
It won't cause a depression.
You wanna keep sending billions to the mideast and Venezuala?
Somethings are worth it. The US needs to change what it has been doing for national security and the US economy.
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| 5. With a busted econmy from #4 idea, #5 wouldnt really be possible. |
The revenue will cancel out the effects of gas prices.
and the R&D will be a big bonus to the US.
If neccessary go more into debt to pay for alternative energy research.
Better be at the mercy of debt than at the mercy of the middle east.
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| 6. Since when does Europe listen to anything we say? |
They usually don't but then again Germany and France have better governments.
Anyway the US can do other stuff like saying if you don't black list Hizzbollah then you can't do business in the US. If Europe says no then it is something to think about
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| 7. That goes agaisnt our core values |
No it doesn't . Even w/ the Patriot act the US is one of the most free and tolerant nations in the world.
Why does Korea have it. The US already has passports and drivers licences.
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| 9. and start a war with the kurds and turkey? not a good idea |
No it wont start a war. US military bases in Kurdistan will start a war with Turkey why?
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| 10.You really think the ban stopped the CIA? |
Yes. It did.
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| 11. We already have nuclear weapons. |
they have fallout and they are a political problem. There would be no point.
Unlike nuclear weapons it is something the US can actually use.
No fall out and then the US can say" hey we didn't nuke anyone"
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| How would withdrawing from a treaty not to develop nukes do anything when we have nukes already? |
Well the world will see that if Iran gets nukes the US will do its part to make the world a miserable place to live in so the rest of the world ought to pressure Iran.
What use is the NPT if Iran gets nuclear weapons anyway? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
What use is the NPT if Iran gets nuclear weapons anyway? |
Oh, c'mon, Joo. You don't support the NPT. Am I right in believing that you think the US should have the freedom of action to contract with India to supply them nuclear material for their reactors, even though India was never a signatory of NPT, the US is, and thus the US is violating NPT provisions in doing so? |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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beck's listed a lot of flash points between Islam and the rest of the world.
The Philipines
West Africa
East Africa
Ethiopia and Eritria
Kenya (Obama's home turf)
Bosnia
Kosovo
There are more.
Huntington's book on the Clash of Civilizations has it pegged |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
What use is the NPT if Iran gets nuclear weapons anyway? |
Oh, c'mon, Joo. You don't support the NPT. Am I right in believing that you think the US should have the freedom of action to contract with India to supply them nuclear material for their reactors, even though India was never a signatory of NPT, the US is, and thus the US is violating NPT provisions in doing so? |
Well the US ought to use the NPT like a cheap date.
The US can use the threat of withdrawing from it for something as well.
at any rate up to now the US hasn't violated anything when it comes to India cause India hasn't approved of the deal as of yet. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
Huntington's book on the Clash of Civilizations has it pegged |
I'll shelve it pretty quickly.
Why doesn't Buddhism clash with Xtianity? Or Xtianity with Shintoism? Or Shintoism with Daoism? Or Daoism with Buddhism? Or Confucianism with Jainism? Or Buddhism with Confucianism?
Is it because Islam could be special? Wait, isn't that your claim? Yeah, the Clash of Civilizations thesis is pretty bad, especially for a luminary like Huntington.
Edit:
| Joo wrote: |
| at any rate up to now the US hasn't violated anything when it comes to India cause India hasn't approved of the deal as of yet. |
Hrmmm. Yes, you're right, India hasn't approved the deal. I'll have to check on whether that means the US hasn't violated the NPT yet. That understanding may be true.
Last edited by Kuros on Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:22 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Huntington is right on and considering he wrote it nearly 20 years ago is amazingly accurate. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| The book is 10 years old, and the original article in Foreign Policy magazine is 15 years old (1998 and 1993 respectively). |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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I have a copy of the book. It is 10 years old and the article about 15.
So what? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Just giving the specifics. Fan of facts, what can I say? |
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