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The truth about vaccinations
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

some waygug-in wrote:
So when I find all kinds of websites saying that the CDC is lying about vaccines, how do I know who is lying?


Horrowitz is a dentist. Not a virologist. What does he know? You know the CDC is not lying because the French, Japanese, Chinese, Australian, Canadian, Swedish version of the CDC all seem to agree with the CDC.
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some waygug-in



Joined: 25 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, he's a dentist. He also has the following credentials, according to this website:

http://web.archive.org/web/20061129075856/http://www.lightstreamers.com/horowitz.htm


Dr. Horowitz received his doctorate from Tufts University and was awarded a fellowship in behavioral research at the University of Rochester. Dr. Horowitz earned a master's degree in public health and behavioral science from Harvard University. He also holds a master's degree in health education from Beacon College.

For more than a decade, Dr. Horowitz directed a multidisciplinary health center. He served on the faculties of Tufts University, Harvard University, and the Leslie College's Institute for the Arts and Human Development.

Dr. Horowitz's most recent projects include "Emerging Viruses: AIDS & Ebola-- Nature, Accident or Intentional?" and "Gulf War Syndrome: The Spreading Epidemic Cover-up." In 1999, Dr. Horowitz and Dr. Joseph Barber published "Healing Codes for the Biological Apocalypse" that reveals Bible codes, hidden for 3,000 years, that have major implications for personal and world healing.
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JMO



Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

some waygug-in wrote:
Yes, he's a dentist. He also has the following credentials, according to this website:

...

Dr. Horowitz's most recent projects include "Emerging Viruses: AIDS & Ebola-- Nature, Accident or Intentional?" and "Gulf War Syndrome: The Spreading Epidemic Cover-up." In 1999, Dr. Horowitz and Dr. Joseph Barber published "Healing Codes for the Biological Apocalypse" that reveals Bible codes, hidden for 3,000 years, that have major implications for personal and world healing.


And these credentials didn't set off alarms in your head? bible code..sweet jesus..i can't believe you actually quoted these as credentials. How does any of this lunacy relate to vaccines?
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some waygug-in



Joined: 25 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I figured that would get your attention.

http://web.archive.org/web/20061024160442/www.lightstreamers.com/Horowitz/making_a_difference.html

And Ret. Col. Jack Kingston, previously on the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon, wrote, "'In my estimation, he has unearthed a covert operation run amok, that is bigger than any secret operation in U.S. history. . . ."
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JMO



Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JMO wrote:

...you are officially an idiot.


I called this spot on first time. Who would have thunk it. bible code..sweet jesus.
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khyber



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was listening to a CBC radio show about the very issue of vaccinations (the HPV ones).

The public nurse who came on made an incredibly poignant remark that I'll paraphrase:

The problem with the internet is that disinformation is as readily available as good information. A dose of skepticism is healthy but to withhold medical treatment based on something seen on youtube (I have a feeling the nurse was referring to the very video swi put up) is irresponsible.

Wouldn't you agree?
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

some waygug-in wrote:
Yes, he's a dentist.


I'm sorry I simply don't see virologist or micro biologist in that list. Could you point out where he's qualified? He's a dentist.
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some waygug-in



Joined: 25 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what does a master's degree in public health mean then?

I think his main qualification is that of a researcher into issues of public health.


By the way, why are there so many other doctors and health practitioners

warning of the dangers of vaccinations?


http://www.whale.to/vaccine/articles4.html
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

some waygug-in wrote:
So what does a master's degree in public health mean then?


You tell me. Why should we take the word of someone with an MA in public health over virologists or microbiologists with Phds and a solid record of publishing in peer reviewed scientific journals?

And guess what, while Horrowitz is telling you about the crimes of big pharma out of one side of his mouth, out of the other side of his mouth he's also trying to sell you expensive "natural" products to treat these conditions. He doesn't have a profit motive?

http://www.healthyworldstore.com/?act=viewCat&catId=7

Wow only $25 for Hawaiian Holy Water! I'm sure that's more effective against rabies than a vaccination.

Quote:
By the way, why are there so many other doctors and health practitioners warning of the dangers of vaccinations?


Why do the vast majority of pediatricians vaccinate their own children?

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/116/5/e623

Quote:
Conclusions. Ninety-three percent of the surveyed physicians agree with the current official vaccination recommendations and would apply them to their own children. However, the observation that 5% of nonpediatricians would not use Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccine if they had a child born in 2004 is unexpected and concerning. In contrast, both groups gave additional vaccines than those recommended to their own children. Among physicians in Switzerland interested in immunization, a significant proportion of nonpediatricians decline or delay the immunization of their own children with the recommended MMR- or DTP-based combination vaccines, which indicates that clarification of misconceptions such as fear of "immune overload" has not yet reached important targets among health care providers who thus are unlikely to answer parental concerns adequately.


And define danger. Vaccines are not without risks. This is one reason why North America stopped giving the small pox vaccine in the early 1970s even though it was not officially eliminated from the planet until the late 1970s. Small pox in the constellation of vaccines was one that wasn't without tangible risks. But if 2,000 children a year are going to die from a disease vs the risk that 200 children might get sick, well, what's the logical choice?
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JMO wrote:
some waygug-in wrote:
Yes, he's a dentist. He also has the following credentials, according to this website:

...

Dr. Horowitz's most recent projects include "Emerging Viruses: AIDS & Ebola-- Nature, Accident or Intentional?" and "Gulf War Syndrome: The Spreading Epidemic Cover-up." In 1999, Dr. Horowitz and Dr. Joseph Barber published "Healing Codes for the Biological Apocalypse" that reveals Bible codes, hidden for 3,000 years, that have major implications for personal and world healing.


And these credentials didn't set off alarms in your head? bible code..sweet jesus..i can't believe you actually quoted these as credentials. How does any of this lunacy relate to vaccines?


You have to read his site:

http://www.drlenhorowitz.com/choosing.htm

Quote:
Might an ancient prophecy be referring to a contemporary medical investigator and award-winning author�a Messianic Jew from Philadelphia, whose Hebrew name reflects both Davidian and Levitical blood lineage�Dr. Leonard G. Horowitz?


Could this guy be any more arrogant? Now some nutters look in the bible and find evidence for ufos or bigfoot. Horrowitz looks in the bible and sees it's talking about him.

And ain't this cute, he's a knight:

http://www.drlenhorowitz.com/Press/press_releases/personal/knighting_2006.html
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some waygug-in



Joined: 25 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do the vast majority of pediatricians vaccinate their own children?

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/116/5/e623

Quote:
Conclusions. Ninety-three percent of the surveyed physicians agree with the current official vaccination recommendations and would apply them to their own children. However, the observation that 5% of nonpediatricians would not use Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccine if they had a child born in 2004 is unexpected and concerning. In contrast, both groups gave additional vaccines than those recommended to their own children. Among physicians in Switzerland interested in immunization, a significant proportion of nonpediatricians decline or delay the immunization of their own children with the recommended MMR- or DTP-based combination vaccines, which indicates that clarification of misconceptions such as fear of "immune overload" has not yet reached important targets among health care providers who thus are unlikely to answer parental concerns adequately.

Wow, good for Switzerland. Was a similar study conducted in the US?




So what do you make of this?


http://www.vaclib.org/sites/debate/
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

some waygug-in wrote:
Wow, good for Switzerland. Was a similar study conducted in the US?


Do you suppose swiss doctors have less information on the safety of vaccines than American doctors?


Quote:
So what do you make of this?


http://www.vaclib.org/sites/debate/


I see a list of links. Anything you find compelling when you click one of those links?

Your one link:

"WHY VACCINES ARE INEFFECTIVE"

I've already supplied two peer reviewed studies about the efficacy of vaccines and, since you cited the WHO as an authority, I cited what WHO had to say on the efficacy of vaccines. Maybe you should address the scientific evidence presented to you for the efficacy of vaccines.
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some waygug-in



Joined: 25 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps Swiss pediatricians are more closely regulated than their American counterparts, I don't know.

I did find these charts interesting, perhaps you could tell me what's wrong here.


http://www.vaclib.org/sites/debate/web1.html


GRAPHICAL EVIDENCE SHOWS VACCINES DIDN'T SAVE US

(click on the link to see the graphs)



The above graphs, based on the official death numbers as recorded in the Official Year Books of the Commonwealth of Australia, are taken from Greg Beattie's excellent book "Vaccination A Parent's Dilemma" and represent the decline in death rates from infectious disease in Australia. They clearly show that vaccines had nothing to do with the decline in death rates. (Note: Graphical evidence on the decline in death rates from infectious disease for USA, England, New Zealand and many other countries shows the exact same scenario as above).

So what were the true reasons for this decline? From his book 'Health and Healing' Dr Andrew Weil best answers it with this statement;

"Scientific medicine has taken credit it does not deserve for some advances in health. Most people believe that victory over the infectious diseases of the last century came with the invention of immunisations. In fact, cholera, typhoid, tetanus, diphtheria and whooping cough, etc, were in decline before vaccines for them became available - the result of better methods of sanitation, sewage disposal, and distribution of food and water."


Shocked

Also interesting are the further reading links at the bottom of the page.
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ED209



Joined: 17 Oct 2006

PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

some waygug-in wrote:

Also interesting are the further reading links at the bottom of the page.


Those links reference back to the anti-vaccination site you keep sighting.

Your graph shows death rate not infection rate. What's the infection rate? A fall in death rate could be linked to reduction in malnutrition and better post infection health care(including isolation patients as in the case of Typhoid). Even if no more infected die vaccines would save many from suffering and expensive healthcare.

Increased awareness can prevent spreading whilst a vaccine is being produced. Identifying patients and isolating them as well as finding the causes and breeding grounds all help when an outbreak occurs. Even if vaccines were the final nail in the coffin wouldn't you want to keep them?
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

some waygug-in wrote:
Perhaps Swiss pediatricians are more closely regulated than their American counterparts, I don't know.


Then why do a study on people who have little choice? Your claim was why do so many doctors (not just american doctors) come out against vaccination. I showed you a study that when we look at a given population of doctors, the vast majority vaccinate. You've moved the goalpost now based on speculation. Shall we now say only the opinions of american doctors are valid in this debate and the opinion of swiss or foreign doctors are not? Because by waving away my counter evidence, that's what you're setting up.



Quote:

GRAPHICAL EVIDENCE SHOWS VACCINES DIDN'T SAVE US

(click on the link to see the graphs)


Did you actually read what I wrote about those other graphs you linked to? No one argues that improved medical care and sanitation does not have a great role too. So, 10,000 children are no longer dying but 500 children are dying. If you introduce vaccinations you can further reduce the death rate.

Regarding those links below, again, what do you find compelling about them?

Again, I've presented you with two papers (I can find more) that directly counter your claim that vaccines are not proven effective. Are you going to challenge those papers or are you going to simply ignore any evidence that might falsify your position because it falsifies your position? You never even defined your goalpost for what evidence do you require to demonstrate a vaccine IS effective? Made up your mind, huh, and you're just looking for web sites to confirm your bias? Not very scientific.
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