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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
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10.You really think the ban stopped the CIA?
Yes. It did. |
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Someone prefers to take their information from Hollywood films such as the Bourne Identity rather than real-life evidence.
Who said this by the way, Joo? It presupposes that the CIA used to operate or now operates on its own -- and that the CIA continued running assassination operations on its own, even after R. Helms and J. Carter forbade it between the late-1960s and the mid-1970s. |
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TexasPete
Joined: 24 May 2006
Location: Koreatown
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| I would like to see any and all aid which goes to the developing world (particularly the Islamic developing world) linked in some way to secular education programs. The uneducated and the ignorant feed the suicide bomb machine. Of course the dictators will never allow this because they blame all their citizens woes on America to distract them from the fact that they've done absolutely nothing to invest in their own country. It may be naive, but it's what i can think of off the top of myhead. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
What use is the NPT if Iran gets nuclear weapons anyway? |
Oh, c'mon, Joo. You don't support the NPT. Am I right in believing that you think the US should have the freedom of action to contract with India to supply them nuclear material for their reactors, even though India was never a signatory of NPT, the US is, and thus the US is violating NPT provisions in doing so? |
Let me add in that one of the reasons that more than a few nations protect Iran from sanctions or side w/ Iran is to get the US.
They like seeing the US with problems.
Well the US can give notice. If nations are intent on making the world an uncomfortable place for the US the US can do its part to make the world more of an unpleasant place for everyone.
If they want to play the game to bring down the US then they will go down too. |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| TexasPete wrote: |
| I would like to see any and all aid which goes to the developing world (particularly the Islamic developing world) linked in some way to secular education programs. The uneducated and the ignorant feed the suicide bomb machine. Of course the dictators will never allow this because they blame all their citizens woes on America to distract them from the fact that they've done absolutely nothing to invest in their own country. It may be naive, but it's what i can think of off the top of myhead. |
This sounds like a grand idea- but it is just a form of western indoctrination. "Secular" education is itself biased to a set of values- which is exactly why you would want it taught- it promotes the values you believe in.
The money used for education in the countries you are concerned about (poor Islamic countries) is coming from the oil rich Gulf States. So it is already coming from us, but going through third parties who are educating children in their values.
At hard as it might be, we need to leave people to develop their own ideas. It really comes back to the fact that the "radical Islamists" are not near the majority of Islam, and that the struggles within the Muslim countries over development and values has to be their struggle. Any interference from the west looks and smells like colonialism or agression.
And, yes, there is a faction of Islam that is unlikely to moderate. We can kill them, and we will incite the development of more. We can try to "educate" them, and we will inspire more as resistence. We can continue to consume oil and fund them, and their numbers will grow.
We, in fact, are doing all three of these things. It sure doesn't appear to be working.
The women I teach have a mix of fundamentalist and progressive ideas. The are exposed to the values and ideas of the west, and are in the process of struggling with who they are and how to proceed. But they will change or not on their own terms. When they take off their abayas, they look like the modern young women they aspire to be. With their abayas on, once you are inured to the shock of all black, you can see that they are modern young Muslim women. It is paternalistic to demand them to be otherwise.
We need to examine our own demands that the world conform to us. Given the death toll of the process, is it that much different that the efforts of our enemies?
Now I'll go have breakfast and wait to be flamed.
Cheers |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Those who support Islamic self determination, immediately write off half of the population of the Islamic world. The female half. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: Uranium |
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http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b1/2007Uranium.PNG
Australia & Canada had 44% of the worlds uranium mining in 2007, cf just 4%, in the US. I've noticed several recent news items in the Australian / Indian press, debating the wisdom of selling uranium, to both Russia & India. eg:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/heat-on-russian-uranium-deal-20080909-4d2a.html
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/blnus/27091258.htm
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24322680-643,00.html
And getting back to the main topic of Islamic terrorism, I also noticed this
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24327702-2702,00.html
"Lodhi, a Pakistani-born Australian citizen, was found guilty of three charges of planning bombings in 2003 to advance the cause of violent jihad."
Personally, I think he should be deported back to Pakistan. He can take any Australian born wife & kids with him. Then again, we can at least monitor these nutters in Australian / Western prisons, rather than have them plotting murder & mayhem from their own countries? Ditto for Benbrika & Co:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Nacer_Benbrika |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
| Those who support Islamic self determination, immediately write off half of the population of the Islamic world. The female half. |
A lot of the female half, and a fair number of the male half, are all for improving the lot of women and providing equality. It is condescending to think that they need our help. It is paternalistic and condescending. To suggest it is necessary is arrogant.
Yes, it is important to be in a dialogue with progressive and educated groups in the world as to how to assist people in their own struggles, but in the end it is their struggle.
Attacking Islam, and Islamic men, hurts the advances of Islamic women by putting all of Islam together in a defensive position. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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desultude:
You really should read what you wrote. It is that same attitude that doomed 6 million Jews and 6 million others to extermination.
Condesention? Abslutely it is such. It is long long past time these either came of of the middle ages., for the sake of their own people.
What is needed is a new Crusade, not more standing by the side and wringing our haqnds in fear. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
desultude:
You really should read what you wrote. It is that same attitude that doomed 6 million Jews and 6 million others to extermination. |
Eh? Could you please clearly articulate the connections between what desultude wrote, and the fate of those exterminated by Nazis? Some of us are not quite bright enough to catch on. Thanks in advance. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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BB:
The key word is "attitude". Basically he said that we must stand aside and not get their backs up or their pride hurt. A lot of Germans "stood aside" when Hitler took on the Jews.
The came for the Jews and I said nothing,
They came for the socialists and I said nothing,
. . .
Then they came for me and there was no one left to say anything.
I believe the man's name was Neibauer (sp). |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
BB:
The key word is "attitude". Basically he said that we must stand aside and not get their backs up or their pride hurt. A lot of Germans "stood aside" when Hitler took on the Jews.
The came for the Jews and I said nothing,
They came for the socialists and I said nothing,
. . .
Then they came for me and there was no one left to say anything.
I believe the man's name was Neibauer (sp). |
Wasn't the reason he didn't speak up was out of fear? Desultude is not cowered, but is generally disputing the fact that there might actually be a holocaust imminent. When Niebuhr didn't speak up, he saw people being taken to the gas chambers alive.
So I think your historical analogy falls flat. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Learn more history Kuros. You are ignoring history and would have us repeat it.
By the way, it cowed not cowered.
Last edited by contrarian on Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
Learn more history Kuros. You are ignoring history and would have is repeat it.
By the way, it cowed not cowered. |
I understand the history. In fact I filled in the picture for you. I'm disputing the analogy. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| The analogy fits. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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desultude wrote:
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| Attacking Islam, and Islamic men, hurts the advances of Islamic women by putting all of Islam together in a defensive position. |
Doesn't that work both ways? If Muslims continually attack Western values & society, doesn't that get OUR backs up, & put us in a defensive, or even counter-offensive position? Dar es Salaam, Nairobi, 9/11, Bali, Madrid, London, Algeria, Turkey et al.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_United_States_embassy_bombings
The US & coalition forces wouldn't be in Iraq or Afghanistan, if none of the above had transpired, & Muslims used constructive dialogue, instead. |
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