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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
desultude wrote:
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| Attacking Islam, and Islamic men, hurts the advances of Islamic women by putting all of Islam together in a defensive position. |
Doesn't that work both ways? If Muslims continually attack Western values & society, doesn't that get OUR backs up, & put us in a defensive, or even counter-offensive position? Dar es Salaam, Nairobi, 9/11, Bali, Madrid, London, Algeria, Turkey et al.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_United_States_embassy_bombings
The US & coalition forces wouldn't be in Iraq or Afghanistan, if none of the above had transpired, & Muslims used constructive dialogue, instead. |
Oh I see. Now everything is clearer. So the 9/11 terrorists, Madrid bombers etc are the ones we should be in dialogue with then. They are the true representitives of the muslim world (all 1.5 billion of them), and it's these guys that we should have been dealing with all along. Not some silly arab diplomat or government representive. We had it all wrong! Osama Bin Laden is a valid spokesperson for all the muslims we know. I better tell that to my muslim friends and acquaintances then, as they seem, as of yet, quite unaware that these murderous jerks are indeed their properly elected representives. Since these guys are acting on behalf of all the muslim world, and are not crazy *beep* ups acting out of radical ideology cooked up by an unelected minority, we sure should be blowing up innocent women and children in Afghanistan and Iraq. Quite right.
And who represents us then? The KKK? I better check in with my local BNP member in that case. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| So the 9/11 terrorists, Madrid bombers etc are the ones we should be in dialogue with then. |
That's NOT what I said or implied. If Muslims expect to be treated fairly they should lead by example. I dont consider 9/11 to be a good example on how to peacefully coexist. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Those terrorist are representative of a nasty side of Islam. All the so called peaceful Muslims could turn these freaks in and show a little gratitude for the help in getting rid of their bad guys. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| So the 9/11 terrorists, Madrid bombers etc are the ones we should be in dialogue with then. |
That's NOT what I said or implied. If Muslims expect to be treated fairly they should lead by example. I dont consider 9/11 to be a good example on how to peacefully coexist. |
Well then who precisely are you admonising when you talk about 'Muslims?' Which 'muslims' exactly? No Afghanis or Iraqis were involved in 9/11. Yet you think it fair that the west brought war to Iraq and Afganistan because of that. You think it's fair to wage war on all muslims because of the actions of a radical criminal few. Please explain how this works.
You seem to hold all muslims (every one of them) responsible for the actions of their most extreme elements. To me it seems that, if I were to use your logic, any black guy would have the right to smash up my pale white face, because of the actions of the KKK.
Anyway, this seems all very rudimentary. Those perpetruating these terrorist attacks are trying their damnest to drag their fellow co-religionists into war. If you respond with war, you are doing what they were hoping for. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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BB: You're reading things into my remarks, that aren't there. I agree with you, that Iraq is a stupid war, & has nothing to do with Islamic terrorism. It's being used as a scapegoat. My whole point was that if more moderate Muslims had spoken out, the string of terrorist attacks on Western targets would never have transpired. And Muslims can't scream "unfair", if these attacks on Western targets continue unabated, & the West responds. Or is that too hard to grasp?
Afghanistan, on the other hand, is a more measured response. Osama bin Laden fled there from Somalia, after the East African bombings. He had the full support of the Taliban, who preach fundamentalist Sharia law, in stark contrast to the more moderate version of Islam in Turkey & Bangladesh. And I have Muslim friends too, btw. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
| BB: You're reading things into my remarks, that aren't there. I agree with you, that Iraq is a stupid war, & has nothing to do with Islamic terrorism. It's being used as a scapegoat. My whole point was that if more moderate Muslims had spoken out, the string of terrorist attacks on Western targets would never have transpired. And Muslims can't scream "unfair", if these attacks on Western targets continue unabated, & the West responds. Or is that too hard to grasp? |
Much too hard to grasp. How would 'moderate muslims speaking out' have prevented terrorist attacks on Western targets? Please explain the machinations of this to me.
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| Afghanistan, on the other hand, is a more measured response. Osama bin Laden fled there from Somalia, after the East African bombings. He had the full support of the Taliban, who preach fundamentalist Sharia law, in stark contrast to the more moderate version of Islam in Turkey & Bangladesh. And I have Muslim friends too, btw. |
He also had access to American dollars and training while he was living there. But that aside, do you think the war in Afghanistan has done much to end radical Islamism?
Actually, I'm not one of those who believe that our (governments') reasons for involvement in Afghanistan had very much to do with ending terrorism. But that's another story - and has been rehashed here too many times.
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| And I have Muslim friends too, btw |
And I wonder how long they'll consider you a friend when they find out what you have to say here... |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| How would 'moderate muslims speaking out' have prevented terrorist attacks on Western targets? |
Case in point: Bangladesh. Read up on it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17_August_2005_Bangladesh_bombings
Extremist Bombers there were caught & executed by the moderate Muslim government End of bombings, end of problem. Still too hard to understand? MODERATES NEED TO DO MORE. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
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| How would 'moderate muslims speaking out' have prevented terrorist attacks on Western targets? |
Case in point: Bangladesh. Read up on it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17_August_2005_Bangladesh_bombings
Extremist Bombers there were caught & executed by the moderate Muslim government End of bombings, end of problem. Still too hard to understand? MODERATES NEED TO DO MORE. |
Sorry, but this is just daft (as an example). For one thing, the terrorist group was a threat to the established state - no wonder the government would clamp down on it! For another, most bloody governments are working hard to make sure they don't have terrorists murdering their populations willy nilly. Most muslim governments are coming down on them HARD - unless those terrorists are working for them, of course. Imagine how many more terrorist killings there would have been throughout the world if muslim governments weren't doing anything about it?
Please tell how MODERATES ARE SUPPOSED TO CATCH EACH AND EVERY TERRORIST ATTACK BEFORE IT HAPPENS?
And please do elaborate a little more on how MODERATES SPEAKING OUT would have PREVENTED THE MADRID and BALI BOMBINGS. I doubt the Madrid bombers met their moderate mates down the pub and told them what they had planned. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:34 am Post subject: |
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There is absolutely no evidence that so-called moderates in any way oppose the work of the violent obedients. All we have from them are defensive justifications, warnings and platitudes of 'root causes'. Don't be so damn naive.
Undercover mosque part 2 is out. All you tolerant types can see how your kindness is being repaid:
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/undercover+mosque+the+return/2436087 |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| So the 9/11 terrorists, Madrid bombers etc are the ones we should be in dialogue with then. |
That's NOT what I said or implied. If Muslims expect to be treated fairly they should lead by example. I dont consider 9/11 to be a good example on how to peacefully coexist. |
Asa!
Where to begin?
I never suggested we do nothing. In fact I said we should work in concert with the groups to support positive change, but not to impose. Change imposed from the outside doesn't work, and it exacerbates the problems.
So, from what you say, all Muslims are at fault, so all should be punished? Do you have any idea what is going on internally with Muslim societies? Can you for a moment imagine that they are not monolithic?
Isn't the real crime of today (11 September) that so many innocent civilians were punished for what was percieved by some, a few, Muslims to be the sins of our government(s)? Is this the sort of behavior you are suggesting we emulate? Holding a whole society accountable for the sins of some?
If this is the case you are making with the Holocaust analogy. Let me take it a step further. If all Muslims are the same and all share responsibility, then, in fact, we should not be helping to women. After all, they are Muslims, and, from the ones I know, they share the belief system and perpetuate it. Furthermore, the Jews in Germany were German, why should be have helped them?
By the way, do you know that there is a fatwa out on the King of Saudi Arabia for his efforts to modernize his society and educate women? I am the last person who would defend the King, but it has to be recognized there there are internal condradictions being played out. Muslim peoples are not just ideologues and victims. The world is not black and white.
Gotta go, I have a flight back to the magic Kingdom in 2 hours.
Cheers |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: Islamic Terrorism |
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| the terrorist group was a threat to the established state |
And terrorist groups are not a threat to established Western States? Bangladesh is an uncommon example, where a moderate Muslim State has fought back, rather than do nothing, or turn a blind eye.
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| "For another, most bloody governments are working hard to make sure they don't have terrorists murdering their populations willy nilly." |
Then it shouldn't be too hard to rattle off a dozen or more examples? I presume you meant Islamic governments?
Indonesia is still pontificating over the execution of the Bali bombers, 6 years later, despite all appeals being exhausted. I'd hardly call that "working hard". Try telling the families of the deceased victims how hard the moderate governments are working to contain the evils of radical Islam. Or why Abu Bakar Bashir did not serve the full 2.5 years imprisonment imposed by the courts, & is out once again, spewing his deranged 'sharia' rhetoric.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakar_Bashir
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/08/14/New_appeal_for_Bali_nightclub_bombers/UPI-73231218738494/
And where is the government intervention for the maddrasses spewing hatred & indoctinating 12 year olds, to hate Jews & Americans? Evidence, please. And why are JI & Abu Bakar Bashir still preaching hatred today??? "In April 2008, the South Jakarta District Court declared JI (Jemaah Islamiyah) an illegal organisation". source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jemaah_Islamiyah
Yet, the President of Indonesia has done nothing. Yeah right. Working hard.
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| do you think the war in Afghanistan has done much to end radical Islamism? |
No, it hasn't.
Please tell how MODERATES ARE SUPPOSED TO CATCH EACH AND EVERY TERRORIST ATTACK BEFORE IT HAPPENS?
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Moderates need to speak out & ACT, rather than turn a blind eye, do nothing, or even give tacit approval. Again, evidence please, where moderate Muslims are actually doing something? Zero tolerance of extremist views, needs to be both seen & heard. Deport extremists, report them instead of doing nothing. Insist on 'truth in sentencing', with no early releases.
desultitude: A good post! You've obviously thought through the issues, & realise the issue is complex & have provided strong counter arguments. And I agree with you, that women in Islamic societies deserve equality. How best to achieve that equality is the question.
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| So, from what you say, all Muslims are at fault, |
No, that's not what I said. What I said was, MODERATES NEED TO DO MORE. ie shut down splinter groups, mosques preaching hatred & violence, maddrasses indoctrinating hate propanganda, truth in sentencing, & zero tolerance of extremist views. Deport extremists from Western countries, where they use their higher wages, to organise & pay for yet more terrorist plots. None of this namby pamby 'slap on the wrist' stuff, as in Indonesia. This extreme view of Islam, is NOT my view:
http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=xF4A8Nz-QBU&feature=related |
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