Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Gopher]

Bucheon Bum: do you truly intend to leave the country, as a kind of politically-motivated self-exile, should the Republicans win come November?

[bucheon bum]

I sincerely believe this country is sliding downward and my faith in the American public will be gone if McCain wins. And it has nothing to do with Republicans, but specifically Palin. She represents the worst of the Bush administration: qualifications mean nothing; it is either how you look or who you know. That is a big reason why the first 6 years of the Bush administration were such a wreck. I honestly think Bush finally got his act together after Congress won in November 2006. I have more faith in the present administration than I do in the McCain/Palin combo.

If that makes me sound elitist, I don't care. And if McCain becomes the man he was in 2000 instead of 2008 on January 20th, then I will be very relieved and have more confidence in the country. His frequent mistakes and errors, however, make me believe the McCain of 2000 is gone.

Tiger Beer is right: the McCain/Palin team has NO domestic policy. It is a joke. This country needs serious reform and investment in infrastructure. Will Obama provide that? Maybe not, but I have more confidence in him than I do in McCain/Palin.

I'm not doing it for political reasons. I'm doing it because I think America could be a sinking ship.

[Kuros]

I think Bucheon Bum's position is somewhat extreme, but only somewhat. But I am interested, nonetheless. I, too, feel very strongly about this election. And I also feel as if its a kind of reckoning for America. So I understand emotionally where he's coming from.

I think McCain has his virtues. I think McCain would do what Bush failed to do: cut corporate taxes. This will help the economy, as will cutting taxes generally, PROVIDED, and this is a huge assumption, PROVIDED McCain can really take an axe to spending. The McCain domestic policy appears like nothing because it essentially is nothing; its about reducing government. I should also point out that I believe McCain is sincere and will make a solid and effective effort in accomplishig this plan. I also think a general reduction in the size of government, in the right areas, might be beneficial. So in all, that would already be a sizable improvement over Bush, who talked big talk about being a conservative, but really that just meant pushing policy for the sake of power and letting a Republican Congress have its way. McCain won't even have that liberty, nor do I think he would be inclined to submit to the temptation if he could.

However, I tend to believe that America needs a real change, and we need to build a social infrastructure for the 21st Century. Its been almost 40 years since we've enacted a social structure. We have no health care, Social Security is nice but sinking us financially, and our education system is in a fuedal nightmare: fiefdoms of local school boards and the only central control being the clergy, i.e., the Teacher's Unions. Not to mention our entire society is built on cars and the supply for oil is as instable as the effect of our emissions is damaging for our future. Oh, yes, I understand PRECISELY where BB is coming from, and I haven't even mentioned my qualms with McCain's foreign policy positions yet.

Now as I remember, BB is a classic elitist. He's well educated in foreign affairs, and I believe he's even pursuing/completed a Master's/PHD in the field. So for him to go abroad would hardly be radical idea. It also makes sense: for those of us who have been abroad, its simply better to live abroad if the quality of life is better. I mean the American passport is still nice in the doors it opens, and I doubt McCain could screw that up if Bush hasn't. But I guess there's some sense of abandoning or fleeing the country, as if BB were some well-to-do Venezuelan or perhaps an Argentinian before the turn of the century. There's something just pathetic and wrong about considering the US so backwards and hopeless that other countries would be marked improvements nearly across the board. After all, if BB's finished with the best part of America, our colleges and post-graduate educational institutions, why should he not get a job abroad if the neighborhood, pay, and environment is better? Right. Kind of sad reflection on America, though.

Gopher, I think you're starting to perceive how a lot of people feel, particularly young moderates like BB and myself, about how important an Obama election is for our country. Bush is like having Carter for 8 years. Its a disaster. And the economy is really that bad. I think we'll rebound but I'm an optimist, and I also think we can beat global warming. This even though scientists are telling us we are already screwed. But I cannot say I am surprised BB feels this way, nor can I even claim he's out in left-field. I definitely have my fits of rage several times a week about the general state of affairs in this country.

[Gopher]

First, if you consider the United States "backwards and hopeless," that we seem on the brink of the abyss, and any job abroad (his only criteria so far, by default, seems to be "anywhere but the United States") will offer better pay, conditions, environments, etc., then I think you need to get out and see the world a bit more. Compare and contrast American with states that have indeed collapsed: Soviet Russia, Yugoslavia, Somalia. I say this knowing both of you have been around about as much as I have. So it also reflects my incredulity that you would articulate such hyperbolic language as that. Also, I know where Bucheon Bum is, and I would hardly, hardly call it "a backwards and hopeless" place by any definition.

All of this is surprising to me as well. I find leaving your home to protest an administration a gesture that carries mostly symbolic meaning only for yourself. The country will go on the same either way. It also carries negative consequences for you: do you truly believe you can advance an academic career while taking yourself out of circulation and living abroad for at least four years? There are alternatives: Congressional elections every two years. And as the Federalists argued in the Federalist papers, governors wield more power than presidents, and presidents only hold office for four years at a time.

I recall meeting a very, very radical American woman living in Chile who had chosen this course. Even the most antiAmerican Chileans I knew found her extreme and almost impossible to get along with. Some of you seem to be becoming like her, at least in some ways. And if a Republican victory truly causes this level of distress, then there might in fact be something to this idea of hyperpoliticization, extreme polarization, and nascent civil-war-like conditions in the United States. Ya-ta Boy's invoking Nero and Bucheon Bum's belief that he sees "a sinking ship" in the United States seem to confirm this. Not so long ago, only the howler-monkey talked like that.

And I am sorry I cannot agree with either of you on this. I cannot and will not contribute to a possible B. Obama victory. Had the Clintons won the nomination, I might have campaigned for them. But it did not work out that way. If your candidate wins, I will be the first here to congratulate you. Should mine win, apparently I can expect the antiBush tirades to be redirected to McCain-Palin, and perhaps redoubled -- and I think it has in fact already begun with S. Palin. We might even pick up weapons and point them at each other before much more time passes. I can in fact imagine one particular scenario that would lead down that path: a Democratic victory. The B. Obama campaign, as articulated by J. Biden in an appearance I saw, pledged to "go after" the previous administration. There are elements of the Democratic party that wants to brand them "war criminals" and charge "crimes against humanity." Should these people take power, while controlling Congress, and should they indeed start this, and with the zealous spirit and mindset I see some of them expressing, I can imagine how things might go from there.

C'est la vie. Truly nothing lasts forever.

[Kuros]

[Gopher]

I wrote a reply but then deleted it.

This conversation has disappointed and annoyed me. You two ought to just do what you gotta do. It will be a long, bitter two months before November. And I am not sure I want my side to work with your side anymore. I have long sympathized with J. Lieberman and his departure from the Democratic Party. Now I do so even more. I can hardly stand "the other side of the aisle" and its dramatic and puerile tantrums anymore. So if you truly think this is the end, where you cannot handle living in an America where your party does not control the Oval Office and Congress simultaneously, and that not achieving political power means that you lose faith in all the American public and want to scorn them by leaving, or that the United States is going to collapse like Venezuela or Argentina and you just want to get to a better, more viable place to live your ilfe, then I think those of us who do not agree with this nonsense would be better off without you in the polity and especially in future elections. Perhaps you should go should the Republicans win the election, then. I personally would not live in America if I saw it as you do.

[Ya-ta Boy]

[Gopher]

You presented a very Kremlinologist-style story that pained to reach conclusions based on J. McCain's accompanying S. Palin to the tarmac and also by reading aides' suggestive facial expressions to gain theoretical insight into the McCain-Palin campaign's inner thoughts.

Sounds like Kremlinology to me. Not meant to attack or discredit what you posted. Just sounds like Kremlinology to me. No more no less. I am not sure you caught the reference, though. And I note you are now speculating on J. McCain's "ego." So it seems appropriate to clarify that this is what I refer to when I say "sounds like Kremlinology."

[Ya-ta Boy]

While I thought the author's comments about aide's facial expressions interesting, what I was commenting on was the size of the crowds. McCain with Palin, 26,000, McCain practically alone in a diner with 6. No doubt that particular meeting was chosen to highlight the difference, but other articles I read today say similar things. McCain is not drawing large crowds. McCain with Palin is drawing big crowds.

You seem to be confusing my comments with something you read elsewhere.

But yes, I know what Kremlinology is. It is no different from any other dictatorship when access to the decision-maker is tightly controlled. Rumor and the interpretation of trivia become art forms.

I still say the point of the article and my original post were about the seeming disparity in popularity between McCain and Palin.

[Gopher]

No confusion. You are theorizing based on external data (rally attendance) and telling us about J. McCain's inner psychological workings. And your Kremlinologist title, "Signs of Trouble," can be interpreted to mean that you are telling us that this and its effect on J. McCain's ego, has begun to divide J. McCain and S. Palin.

And I disagree that you are telling us about "the seeming disparity in popularity between McCain and Palin." I do not know how you would measure that exactly, either. All you have is a reporter's impressions on rally attendance in the last couple of days. I think you are telling us how this disparity must impact J. McCain and what it means.

[Kuros]

[Rum Jungle]

[Gopher]

Pure bullocks, Kuros.

With an American law degree, you will make more money, enjoy better benefits, and live a far better life as an attorney in the United States than anywhere else in the world. Unless you plan to go abroad and work for an American corporation or other firm -- which is an excellent option that Americans have that few others do: a global reach, stemming from a massive, globally-projected economy. And, in any case, that would not really be leaving America, either, especially as most will pay you in American dollars, which I doubt you would renounce in favor of most local currencies. Also, would you close all American-based banking and credit accounts in favor of attempting new ones wherever you plan to go?

And your "things are bad" and "Americans are upset" also privileges some Americans' perspectives (Cindy Sheehan, et al.) over others, who remain interested in working on bettering the place rather than denouncing it as politically irredeemable and economically "tanked." It especially privileges the usual internet hysteria over actual reality on the ground.

And all of this nonsense is testable. Let us see what Bucheon Bum and you do and what happens in America if and when the Republicans win.

[bucheon bum]

[Ya-ta Boy]

Hmmm...Lieberman, bb and Kuros...getting frustrated and searching for greener pastures. Looks pretty parallel to me.