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Study Concludes: Whites Anxious about "Race"
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TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:46 pm Post subject:

The Bobster wrote:

TUM, I had to take a couple days to suss out your last missive to us and try to first figure out what your thesis is, and then try to understand where we are misunderstanding each other, and in the end I rather wierdly suspect that we are not actually in any real disagreement, at least not about the matter directly in front of us.

At a certain point in the process, I was reminded of a tiny and inconsequential, and slightly humorous poem I read years ago called "How to Build An Owl." The first step was "Decide you must," and I can't help but think that what you gave here was an owl that was not actually required. The last step, as I recall: "Hold your owl close, and whisper its ear: 'Mouse.'" And again, what I feel like I'm seeing is an unnecessary owl, wandering around with nothing worthwhile to do ...

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

I'm not talking about journals, I'm talking about people. Do you think that only people who've been written up in an academic journal have the appropriate credentials? Do you, really?

When we are judging their level of excellence as members of academia, I think academic journals are a good place to start. I think political blogs are maybe not such a good place to start - unless we are looking for politics. I was looking for academic prowess, and you are looking for something else. Apparently.

Their academic prowess and credentials are listed in the blog. And as I pointed out I was looking for political involvement But since you like journals both Brewer and Manning Marable are involved in an academic journal called Souls. Brewer is a contributing writer and Marable is the editor.

Quote:

Note the four people (Rose Brewer PhD, Manning Marable, PhD, Barbara Ransby PhD and William L. Strickland) who have experience in the relevant field. I'd say they're comparable to Ms. Richeson in qualifications.

And almost as wonderful as that Kanbon fella who wants to kill all the white people ... WOW!

What's that got to do with anything? I don't recall saying he was wonderful or anything like that.

I didn't say he was wonderful, either, and I'm sorry that the sarcasm escaped - it was clearly marked - because my intention is that he's the opposite of wonderful. What does he have to do with anything? He's the reason we're talking about black scholars. He was presented to us as one who has benefited, promoted and is a "product" of African-American studies. I've been saying you can choose just about anyone else and they would be more representative of people working in the field.

As did I

Quote:

Rose Brewer is a leader of the Radical Black Congress which is very political indeed. Do a search on their goals.

It might be true, but I haven't noticed her name anywhere on the group's website, so I'm not sure what level her involvement is. Do you?

A couple of things. First they support the release of all non-violent offenders. They say these prisoners should be released "and provided with appropriate medical, rehabitative care and educative assistance without incarceration" So if someone steals a million dollars by fraud we should give him a pat on the head or what?

This is not a radical idea or a dangerous one. It's just something you disagree with. It's nothing at all similar to espousing genocide of the white race. Who's talking about patting anyone on the head? What's the connection you are making with Rose Brewer, again?

Did I say this was "similar to espousing genocide of the white race"? I said this was political, nothing more

Quote:

Secondly did you read article XII in which they demand reparations for the past four centuries of Black mistreatment. If I were an American I'd be outraged that I would have to pay for things other people did hundreds of years ago. That is out there in left field. Yes they have some laudable goals. This is NOT a laudable goal by any means.[ At the least I would say that qualifies as one of the "divisible ideologies" that Mr. Gopher mentioned.

Again, it's something you disagree with, and it is something has been discussed for decades and more.

It's probably not feasible, but it's at the heart of debates about affirmative action and other forms of "reverse discrimination." It's a social reality that certain segments of society are privelaged due to being born of certain parents or brought up in certain areas rather than others, so there are people alive today who continue to benefit from injustices of past centuries. It's not new information, or I hope it's not - and it's nothing radical or dangerous to look at that and see it for what it is, and even ask if equitable treatment of people in the present might be predicated on this. You don't agree with the notion of reparations, fine - what's wrong with people who want to talk about it, though?

Nothing is wrong with people who want to talk about it...this is still a "divisible ideology" is all my point was

By the way, do you know why Spike Lee's film company is named Forty Acres And A Mule Productions? It's what the US Govt promised to award the former slaves after the Civil War. Only a few actually received anything at all, though.

Quote:

Neither does it qualify as "the complete absence of any call to struggle" as you said about some other works

Yes, I used that phrase about something else, academic journals, so I'm not sure why you're talking about it here, because this group under discussion is not merely a group of scholars, even if scholars are counted among their number. A political activist group is where calls for struggle belong, you know. In any case, "struggle" is being used in the nonviolent sense because any kind of reparations would take place either by writing a check or tax advantages to minority businesses or some other kind of social programs ... now tell me, is there anything here similar to calling for the extermination of the white race?

Where did I say there was? I would have hardly asked "why could they not be representative of African American Studies departments?" in that case

Quote:

Barbara Ransby is a "long term political activist"

You forgot to mention the first two titles your website gives her: historian and writer. Talk about yer cherry-picking ...

Not cherry-picking. You claimed in a recent post there was little politics...so I'm showing the politics side. Simply posting the relevant. information.

Pretty sure that fails the relevance test because I was talking about a scarcity of political topics in the table of contents of an academic journal - by which I wished to show the nature of intellectual discussion in the field of African-American studies - but you are talking about activism a scholar might choose to undertake in her life outside of the university.

(I once knew a mail carrier who was a lifelong Democrat, but he never talked to me about who to vote for when I bought stamps from him, because he was forbidden to do so, or even to wear a campaign button on his uniform, while engaged in his working life as an employee of the federal govt. I hope the analogy is clear - Mr Kanbon was promoting genocide while wearing the hat of a university employee.)

Quote:

Simply because the blog itself may not be comparable to a journal doesn't mean the information it contains is less valuable or that the people mentioned within it don't have points of view worth sharing. ,

I hope you'll feel free to share anything you like, but I hope you won't try to convince us that since apples grow on trees and oranges do, too ... well, you get the idea.

An apple is still an apple even though it may grow on a different tree...

Quote:

Again one of my points here was to get you to see that yes there is politics and quite a bit of it in African American Studies

Sure, but why are you trying to get me to see something I pointed outr from the start? I called attention to the word 'politics' in the wiki definition of African-American Studies, and I made the point that one would expect to see more than one does in the academic journal I cited. Seems like you went to a lot of work to convince us of something about which there was no dispute at all.

So we do agree.

Quote:

True, which again brings us back to another point. The professors and writers mentioned here seem more level-headed and rational than Kanbon, so why could they not be representative of African American Studies departments?

It's not another point. It's the point I was making all along. (You have to remember to whisper "Mouse" in its ear, you know.)

And again we agree...could have just said that

But, um ... didn't you get the impression that Mr G really wanted us to think that Mr Kanbon and the Panthers were what naturally comes about when academia starts to think that the effects of ethnicity within society is something worth serious study? Now, why would he want us to think such a thing?

Not really...every movement tends to have fringe effects such as Kanbon (and the Panthers of whom the Black Radical Congress apparently approves of, stating they were created as a counter for police abuse. ) I think Mr. G (cute nickname BTW) was pointing this out. After all as we have both shown one can find capable, intelligent, thoughtful people in every field including African American Studies , just as one can find nutcases and weirdos in every field.

But at the end of the day only Mr. G can tell us what he actually meant.

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:47 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Their academic prowess and credentials are listed in the blog. And as I pointed out I was looking for political involvement

Well, the fact that you were looking at political involvement was obvious from the start, but you still haven't told us why you were looking for that when the question was about credentials in academia and validity of a particular field of study. (Whisper "mouse" in its ear.)

Quote:

Did I say this was "similar to espousing genocide of the white race"? I said this was political, nothing more

But by moving your discussion from academia to politics there's the strong implication that being involved in the life of polity is carries something about it worth objecting to. Unless a scholar is expressing opinions that either promote or seek to justify violence and hate, I'm not sure what you think is wrong here. (Did you think really heard about whether you needed to build this owl, TUM?)

Quote:

Nothing is wrong with people who want to talk about it...this is still a "divisible ideology" is all my point was

Hm, well, I have to say, it's the first time you are making the point, or even alluding to it with regard to reparations. Seems like before you were just "outraged" (or you thought I should be) at the thought of people who are alive today being asked to make recompense for the beneficial conditions circumstances of history have given them at times and places sometime in the past and not local to where they are now. And I'm sorry, but I did get the distinct impression that you felt the issue itself was "radical" and worthy of indignation to the point that you truly did feel it was objectionable to discuss.

The problem with labeling certain discussions as "devisive ideologies" is that the effect (likely the intent, also) is to draw limits and funnel down the range of things which are allowable to be discussed at all.

Yes, we would all like to live in a world where everyone has the same chances at a good life no matter who they are, their gender, or the color of their skin or what neighborhood in the city they found themselves in after they were born. But we don't live in that world, not by a longshot.

And make no mistake, I personally do not favor any kind of monetary reparations to the descendants of slavery in America, but it's for a different reason altogether from yours - I just don't think any particular dollar figure one could come up with could possibly be enough.

(You almost whispered "mouse" that time, though - did you notice? VERY cool.)

Quote:

But, um ... didn't you get the impression that Mr G really wanted us to think that Mr Kanbon and the Panthers were what naturally comes about when academia starts to think that the effects of ethnicity within society is something worth serious study? Now, why would he want us to think such a thing?

Not really....

Look back at the thread again, and see how Mr Kanbon and the New Panthers were introduced to us, as a natural "product" of certain academic disciplines and modes of political discourse which the OP of this thread finds to be devisive.

Quote:

every movement tends to have fringe effects such as Kanbon (and the Panthers of whom the Black Radical Congress apparently approves of, stating they were created as a counter for police abuse. ) I think Mr. G (cute nickname BTW) was pointing this out. After all as we have both shown one can find capable, intelligent, thoughtful people in every field including African American Studies , just as one can find nutcases and weirdos in every field.

The OP wasn't interested in displaying what is typical of African American studies or other similar academic disciplines, though. He showed us the radical fringe - an instructor with not publilcations after his dissertation, and an activist group that is disavowed by virtually every other civil rights organization ... and he wanted us to think THEY are typical.

You can ask him yourself why he tried to make us believe things that are untrue - he's not talking to me because I don't like the ingredients in the sandwiches he's been serving at this picnic, and I was forthright enough to tell him exactly why. If you can get a straight answer from him about his motivations, though, I'd be interested to hear it.

Last edited by The Bobster on Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject:

Urban Myth: Bobster has selectively restated, oversimplified, mischaracterized, and spun my position to suit his purposes, so I hope you do not take what he says about what I believe seriously enough to respond to it. If you have any questions for me, Urban Myth, I would be happy enough to respond.

little mixed girl

Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Location: shin hyesung's bed~

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

little mixed girl wrote:

that's just reality.

Little Mixed Girl: suffice it to say I believe you will resist seeing my point until doomsday. And you will cling to feminist theory and accusations as well.

i think i know what your point is, and just like you don't agree with mine, i don't agree with yours.

however, what i am most interested in is how you would handle these "problems" if you were in charge.
that's really all i'm interested in hearing.

i would appreciate it if you could give me an answer.

you've talked about divisions and such, but you haven't talked about how you wish to see people interact with each other.

a few years ago when i was at work, some white boys looked over in my direction and put on fake indian accents when talking. then they later followed me around making comments about my supposed race.
i never called them racists or anything like that, but eventually went to find a security guard and they ran away.

what do you think of that incident?

and again, what is your ideal of how people should interact with each other?
how would you propose to deal with instances of racial/ethnic, gender, class, etc discrimination?
is it ok to make jokes about another person's race, etc even if they are offended?

these are the things i'm interested in hearing from you. because i don't feel like you've addressed these points.

Nowhere Man

Joined: 08 Feb 2004

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:29 pm Post subject: ...

Quote:

Urban Myth: Bobster has selectively restated, oversimplified, mischaracterized, and spun my position to suit his purposes

Quote:

Little Mixed Girl: suffice it to say I believe you will resist seeing my point until doomsday. And you will cling to feminist theory and accusations as well.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:26 pm Post subject:

Little Mixed Girl: I have already answered all questions and I have, indeed, repeated those answers multiple times on this thread. And yet the boring baiting and "gotcha" games continue. When you have any sincere questions to ask, do let me know. Also, have you asked Nowhere Man to speak for you? Can you not speak for yourself?

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject:

Nowhere Man did speak for anyone, not even himself. They are your words. If you had no problem seeing them on the page the first time, why should it bother you to see the repeated?

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject:

Bobster, Relax, mate, and seek professional help while you're at it.

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:02 am Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

Bobster, Relax, mate, and seek professional help while you're at it.

Hey, I'm VERY cool, you cute little faeces molester, you ... and how are you today?

I've been called a liar and a coward, and, well, I suppose worse if I cared enough to scan the back pages - and I'm very relaxed today. If the OP thinks the best way to make his case is by accusing me of dishonesty without bothering to support the allegation, and then offering to send pms to individuals so that I can't repond, well, I guess that tells me something significant.

I got no problems with hearing the man's point of view. I just wish he would be kind, that's all.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:31 pm Post subject:

The Bobster wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

Bobster, Relax, mate, and seek professional help while you're at it.

In this thread?

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: Re: ...

Nowhere Man wrote:

Do you think minorities are anxious about race?

This might be the most pertinent question that none of us bothered to ask or respond to.

Zenas

Quote:

Yeah, there are some PC posters that don't like those who don't agree with them playing in their playground. So, instead of refuting the points made, they run whining to the thought police to have the rascal expelled.

For me, hate speech begins with the clear statement that certain people should have violence done to them because if who they are, their mere identity, something which was not chosen by them - other people might have different definitions, though, and that's something we can discuss. At this site, the terms of service say that people can be sanctioned or banned because of hate speech, though, so it's going to depend on what definitions the moderators might choose, I suppose.

I don't feel that racist sexist or otherwise bigoted speech in itself qualifies as hate speech. For me, it goes in the the very large category of Things People Are Mistaken About.

Sometimes people are wrong about things and they don't know it. Sometimes, someone needs to tell them they are, and why. That's something worth discussing, too.

Kuros

Quote:

Jonathan Kay: That's 'African-American hole' to you, pal

It probably doesn't need to be pointed out, but I'll do so anyway. Western culture has been very consistent over the centuries in assigning negative connotations to anything that references darkness and blackness, and very likely this arises from some primordial fear of the unknown, and that danger can sometimes be found in locations where there is not enough light to see very well.

Black carries ideas of evil, harmfulness, anxiety, and especially death. Some religions have even claimed that people of African descent walk around in dark skin due to carrying the "mark of Cain," the original sin of homicide within the family.

The color white, on the other hand carries impressions such as : clean, virginal, good, virtuous, happy and cheerful.

Those of us who have lived any time in Asia know that it's not the same everywhere - over here, white is the color if death, and few would think it's odd to wear black colors at a wedding. Therefore, there is nothing intrinsic to the concept of black or darkness that connects the associations we have placed on them, but rather it is a variable which can be altered by increasing our knowledge base.

There's a lot of PC-business that is dumb, but there's dumbness somewhere in any direction you look. Doesn't mean there isn't anything at all worth thinking about or discussing in the midst of it all, and labeling things as PC is a convenient shortcut away from doing the work of performing that bit of thinking.

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject:

Similar, from Canada:

Quote:

On Friday, as I first learned from Blazing Cat Fur, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal (HRT) adjudicator became the first jurist in recorded human history to convict someone of racial discrimination for praising visible minorities.

The �Deschamps Doctrine� was inspired by a certain Shiv Chopra, a disgruntled Health Canada microbiologist who spent the better part of his career haranguing colleagues with bitter accusations of ill-treatment. Friday�s decision by Deschamps in the case of Chopra vs. Health Canada is only the latest in a mind-boggling stream of litigation that goes back almost two decades.

Like your typical white-collar human-rights complainant, Chopra was frustrated by a career stalled in middle management. He was particularly incensed when he was passed over for acting Division Chief � even though he went on to flunk a test that was a prerequisite for the post. From his early years as a drug evaluator at Health Canada, he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Colleagues complained he was authoritarian and confrontational � not the sort of scientist you wanted running a department.

A Punjabi Hindu who�d emigrated to Canada in the 1960s, Chopra decided there was a racist conspiracy against him. During 37 days of HRT hearings over the last two years, he let loose with a slew of theories about why he�d been denied the job � some so unhinged that even the otherwise sympathetic Deschamps chastised Chopra for undermining his own credibility.

But in the end, Deschamps still came down on Chopra�s side � awarding him $4,000 in damages, plus a few thousand extra in interest and extra wages. The smoking gun: Ten years ago, on Feb. 9. 1998, Chopra was in the audience when his incoming boss, one Andr� Lachance, introduced himself to colleagues with the declaration that � horror of horrors � �he liked visible minorities.�

Chopra declared this to be �a racist remark,� and used it as Exhibit A in his ongoing human-rights nuisance suits. Deschamps bought the argument, concluding � without any sort of substantive explanation � that the 1998 comment was �discriminatory against Mr. Chopra as well as individuals � who were non-white.�

It�s not hard to divine the real reason for Lachance�s Seinfeld-esque flourish: Race activists (including Chopra himself) had made minority quotas a contentious issue at Health Canada in the 1990s. Lachance wanted to reassure his audience that � having come from another department with a diverse work force � he had lots of positive experiences working with people from different backgrounds.

Chopra was the only audience member phobic enough to interpret the well-meaning comment as racist. (As Deschamps himself notes, several co-workers went on-record to disassociate themselves from his weird complaint.) But that didn�t stop the Canadian Human Rights Commission from rolling forward � chewing up hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars and untold man-hours investigating the ravings of a race-obsessed paranoiac.

Aside from being another advertisement for why we should be closing down Canada�s human-rights commissions, the episode nicely illustrates the absurd lengths to which our society�s elites will now go to demonize Whitey. Used to be that us white males had to actually say or do something racist to get put on the human-rights dock. That criterion has now been downgraded to �preferred, but negotiable.�

It so happens that the very day the Deschamps Doctrine was announced on the HRT web site, I received my review copy of A Fair Country: Telling Truths About Canada � in which left-wing Canadian philosopher John Ralston Saul argues that Canada is �a M�tis civilization� that owes all it has (except for the nasty racist bits, of course) to �Aboriginal inspiration.�

The question of how, exactly, a bunch of warring, pre-literate aboriginal hunter-gatherer societies can claim credit for the creation of a modern, democratic, capitalist, industrial powerhouse built entirely in a European image is one that, alas, I must leave for others. That�s because I could not get past Saul�s ridiculous introduction, in which he claims, Deschamps-style, that white, liberal sympathy and guilt regarding the plight of Canada�s natives are merely manifestations of � you guessed it � racism.

�We are careful not to ask ourselves whether those indigenous people over there want our sympathy or are interested in our guilt,� Saul writes. �Perhaps sympathy and guilt are inappropriate and paternalistic and insulting. Perhaps our sympathy is just a cleaned-up version of the old racist attitudes � Perhaps the sympathy and guilt expressed toward Aboriginals are actually signs of non-Aboriginal self-denial ��

Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. Say, perhaps we should stop shipping off $8-billion a year to aboriginal chiefs � because all that guilt-motivated cash is just another expression of racism. With every dollar, a fresh slap in the face. Where do we get off?

Thus does the human-rights industry descend into self-parodic farce. Bereft of real cases to prosecute, the industry�s mandarins instead bide their time prosecuting fake racism of the Mark Steyn and Ezra Levant variety. Or they surf the web, trying desperately to entrap some confused headbanger into saying �Heil Hitler.� And when they can�t accomplish even that, they cannibalize the very well-meaning sentiments � affection, guilt, sympathy, collegiality � once seen as the hallmark of enlightened liberalism.

It would all be too ironic and hilarious for words � if it weren�t for the fact that you and I are footing the bill. Whitey might not be good for much. But his cash is always welcome.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/09/22/jonathan-kay-do-you-like-visible-minorities-you-do-well-then-you-re-a-racist.aspx

The human right to not be liked? No wonder "whites are anxious about race".

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:21 am Post subject:

Quote:

Whitey might not be good for much. But his cash is always welcome.

Mnn. So it's all about money then, I suppose?

If so, then how much would be enough for you, or appropriate? How much would you be willing to pay to every human affected by racism alive who is today, or every descendant alive whose family and themselves would presently be better off at this moment if racism had not touched them at some point in the past.

By doing so, of course, you first have to admit that your own present position in life is in many uncountable ways better than it might otherwise have been, just because hate towards people who are different has existed and does exist.

Just curious ... how much would it be worth to you to make that all go away - pay it off right now, and then then no one will ever need to talk about it again. No one will ask you to feel guilty about things that happened before you were born and anything that happens from now on are the problems of other people, and not you. Who wouldn't like that?

That's the deal. Pick a number. How much is it?

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:19 am Post subject:

The Bobster wrote:

Quote:

Whitey might not be good for much. But his cash is always welcome.

Zero.

But of course your reply had nothing to do with the article. It showed how the "human rights" police in Canada are little more than an ethnic shake-down scam whereby any interaction of any kind between a white and non-white can be seen as racist. This man, who stated that he liked non-whites, is being shaken down for liking non-whites. This is absurd and has nothing to do with your American obsession with slavery. The man was an immigrant -on his own regard- who didn't play the game properly at work and didn't get promoted. He turned around and used white-guilt to profit anyways. That is wrong, and won't last.

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject:

mises wrote:

But of course your reply had nothing to do with the article. It showed how the "human rights" police in Canada are little more than an ethnic shake-down scam whereby any interaction of any kind between a white and non-white can be seen as racist.

The article doesn't actually say that, abut even if it did, it doesn't "show" it, as you say - it merely relates the opinion of a columnist in a conservative and highly partisan publication.

It was you who put the paragraphs in bold that related to money and the amounts awarded, mises, and it is you who are calling it a shake-down scam now - forgive me for thinking that the money was a large part of your indignation as well as Mr Kay's.

Perhaps you can forgive me also for thinking that $4000 and change is not a large sum (perhaps a bit more than a months salary?) and that it might not be enough to justify the ire and excitement we are seeing ... in fact, the sum is paltry enough that in itself it nearly constitutes a statement from the govt that whether it was or was not discrimination it was hardly worth anyone's time at all to talk about, and in fact it's small enough to be considered by some to be a repudiation and a defeat for the complainant.

By any stretch, it's hard to say, as you do, that "used white-guilt to profit" because I very much doubt that anything like profit was the outcome.

Quote:

your American obsession with slavery.

I didn't mention it anywhere in the post you referred to. You seem to be having a conversation with yourself about this ...

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