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bangbayed
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
One of the topics here is does the US owe it to Chavez to tell him of a coup against him
The answer is no. |
And another is whether the United States intends to invade Venezuela.
That answer to that is also no, or at least those who allege this have failed to show any evidence to the contrary. Rather they have squirmed and hurled a collection of rapid-fire allegations, smoke-and-mirror, sleight-of-hand style, meant to confuse such clear-cut issues. |
Not surprised you misinterpret my posts, since your reading ability is obviously below par, but I never alleged the US would invade Venezeula. Nice try, Goofer. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Great. Thank you for clarifying that. The American govt neither directed nor supported the attempted coup, and the American govt has no plans to invade Venezuela.
What exactly are you arguing on this particular thread, then? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Great. Thank you for clarifying that. The American govt neither directed nor supported the attempted coup, and the American govt has no plans to invade Venezuela.
What exactly are you arguing on this particular thread, then? |
Yes, I am puzzled too. An argument over semantics or what?
Ok, after looking over the thread, you are arguing that the US knew of the coup, and it was hypocritical for the gov't to not tell Chavez's regime.
How was it hypocritical? It's called basic foreign policy 101. Hell its human nature 101: help friends, and don't shed a tear if someone that acts hostile towards you gets burned.
I have to agree with Gopher: you just are nitpicking and using this as an opportunity to criticize the US. Awesome. Time well spent. |
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bangbayed
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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It's gopher who decided it was about semantics, but here are the facts:
1. Chavez was elected in a legitimate democratic election.
2. His policies bothered the US.
3. His opponents had close ties to the US.
4. The US's stated policy at the time was that of spreading democracy throughout the world (with no qualifications as to whether that government had to share its ideology to the US).
5. Even having knowledge of an anti-democratic coup taking place and not doing anything about it is tantamount to indirectly supporting it (the same way that if I knew someone was going to rob your house and didn't tell you about it, maybe because I think you're a d*ck, is tantamount to me indirectly supporting it).
6. To take the robbery analogy further, if I loudly espoused a policy of protecting people from household crime, and let this happen, would you not call me a hypocrite?
Case closed. If you don't understand that, come back when you can.
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Awesome. |
Thanks!  |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| bangbayed wrote: |
| 1. Chavez was elected in a legitimate democratic election. |
What does this have to do with the issue this thread raises?
| bangbayed wrote: |
| 2. His policies bothered the US. |
Be specific. Which policies and how have you determined that they "bothered" "the US?" You mean "the American govt," right? And, in any case, what does this have to do with the issue this thread raises?
| bangbayed wrote: |
| 3. His opponents had close ties to the US. |
Be specific. Which opponents and please illustrate these "close ties" to "the US." Again, what does this have to do with the issue this thread raises?
| bangbayed wrote: |
| 4. The US's stated policy at the time was that of spreading democracy throughout the world... |
Christ. What does this have to do with the issue this thread raises?
| bangbayed wrote: |
| 5. Even having knowledge of... |
You are stretching things so far with these last two points that it simply does not merit further investment of my time.
Here is what I think: "Venezuela" has come up. You want to be certain that Washington and the W. Bush Administration get what they deserve. You therefore fall back on the rapid-fire allegation-driven discourse, which, in this case, bears no relationship whatsoever with the issue this thread raises, but whatever. As I said, you want to be certain that Washington and the W. Bush Administration get what they deserve.
Transparently pathetic. The case for "hypocrisy." Congratulations. You pass AntiAmericanismology 101. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| bangbayed wrote: |
It's gopher who decided it was about semantics, but here are the facts:
1. Chavez was elected in a legitimate democratic election.
2. His policies bothered the US. |
No one has disputed this.
| Quote: |
| 3. His opponents had close ties to the US. |
What opponents? What kind of ties? To the US gov't? To the Bush administration? To the Venezuelan expat community in Miami?
| Quote: |
| 4. The US's stated policy at the time was that of spreading democracy throughout the world (with no qualifications as to whether that government had to share its ideology to the US). |
Well not exactly. It was Bush's stated policy, yes. And at the time (2002) it was not as clearly stated as it was to become in the following couple years.
A better example of US gov't hypocrisy would be the Palestinian elections. The Bush administration pushed for the elections against the advice of both Fatah and Israel, and then refused to accept the winner of those elections, Hamas.
| Quote: |
| 5. Even having knowledge of an anti-democratic coup taking place and not doing anything about it is tantamount to indirectly supporting it (the same way that if I knew someone was going to rob your house and didn't tell you about it, maybe because I think you're a d*ck, is tantamount to me indirectly supporting it). |
Ha ha ha, what a lame analogy. Regardless, you're not legally responsible are you? No.
And do you think the US was the only country to know about the impending coup? Do you not think any Latin American countries were privy to it? Given the tense relations between Venezuela and some of its neighbors (primarily Colombia), you can bet your ass that at least a couple other countries knew what was coming.
Point being, Chavez asked for what he got. Just like your neighbor the dick probably did too.
| Quote: |
| 6. To take the robbery analogy further, if I loudly espoused a policy of protecting people from household crime, and let this happen, would you not call me a hypocrite? |
Sure, but I'd also chuckle and think that the neighbor must have been a real asshole. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| bangbayed wrote: |
It's gopher who decided it was about semantics, but here are the facts:
1. Chavez was elected in a legitimate democratic election.
2. His policies bothered the US.
3. His opponents had close ties to the US.
4. The US's stated policy at the time was that of spreading democracy throughout the world (with no qualifications as to whether that government had to share its ideology to the US).
5. Even having knowledge of an anti-democratic coup taking place and not doing anything about it is tantamount to indirectly supporting it (the same way that if I knew someone was going to rob your house and didn't tell you about it, maybe because I think you're a d*ck, is tantamount to me indirectly supporting it).
6. To take the robbery analogy further, if I loudly espoused a policy of protecting people from household crime, and let this happen, would you not call me a hypocrite?
Case closed. If you don't understand that, come back when you can.
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Awesome. |
Thanks! |
Supporting FARC is being against democracy.
In light of that the US has an excuse for not informing Chavez. |
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bangbayed
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:02 am Post subject: |
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Since when did I say hypocrisy was an illegal act?
When you three stooges learn to get your facts together, stop asking me to repeat information and go back and actually read what's been posted by me and others, you can come back and play. Good night. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| bangbayed wrote: |
Since when did I say hypocrisy was an illegal act?
When you three stooges learn to get your facts together, stop asking me to repeat information and go back and actually read what's been posted by me and others, you can come back and play. Good night. |
since Chavez supports FARC , Muagbe , Kim Jong Il , Ali Khamani and Saddam all whom were undemocratic being against Chavez is actually helping democracy. |
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bangbayed
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| since Chavez supports FARC , Muagbe , Kim Jong Il , Ali Khamani and Saddam all whom were undemocratic being against Chavez is actually helping democracy. |
You've got some cajones to present as your only proof of "support", pictures of the people together. And not only post them once as your 'proof', but twice. 
If Gopher was really serious about the meaning of "support", he'd call you on that like he attempted to call me on something much more substantial.
Last edited by bangbayed on Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:48 am; edited 2 times in total |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| bangbayed wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| since Chavez supports FARC , Muagbe , Kim Jong Il , Ali Khamani and Saddam all whom were undemocratic being against Chavez is actually helping democracy. |
You've got some cajones to present as your only proof of "support", pictures of the people together. And not only post them once as your 'proof', but twice.
If Gopher was really serious about the meaning of "support", he'd call you on that like he called me on something much more substantial. |
Gopher only attacks people who don't agree with him and couldn't care less about facts unless they suit his purpose. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:54 am Post subject: |
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This discussion makes me feel it's "Groundhog Day". No, make that read, "Gopher Day".
This whole topic has been Gophered to death before...with the same conclusion. It's all about winning the arguement and supporting my social outlook. Very little to do with the truth and the deep history/fertilize/earth involved in the issues which give rise to Chavez.....
But please continue - it is interesting in its own way... Gopher is even catching the poetic spirit and phrasing new words!
DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| ...history/fertilize/earth... |
the dd delight! |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:57 am Post subject: |
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[quote="bangbayed"]
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| since Chavez supports FARC , Muagbe , Kim Jong Il , Ali Khamani and Saddam all whom were undemocratic being against Chavez is actually helping democracy. |
| Quote: |
| You've got some cajones to present as your only proof of "support", pictures of the people together. And not only post them once as your 'proof', but twice. |
| Quote: |
| If Gopher was really serious about the meaning of "support", he'd call you on that like he attempted to call me on something much more substantial |
We got the pictures and we got that laptop. And everything else he has done in his country is enough for the US hat is enough for the US to not feel any guilt about not informing him about a coup.
The US doesn't owe anyone who public ally supports those types any information.
By the way since Chavez appears with those types he doesn't care much about democracy either.  |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:23 am Post subject: |
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I have some questions for those who support Chavez.
Why has he apparently decided to judge and condem one part of his countries population?
Why does he seem to look for trouble by making aggressive statements against a country that he currently sells oil to?
Why has he nationalised certain businesses, without adequately compensating them?
Why is he supporting violence when peace seems to be a better offer?
Also
Do you think he will give up power in the next election and do you think he was right to have attempted a coup prior to winnning a democratic election?
(edited) |
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