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| Do you believe in God? |
| Yes |
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52% |
[ 74 ] |
| No |
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47% |
[ 66 ] |
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| Total Votes : 140 |
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Message |
Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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 Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
| pkson wrote: |
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Atheists don't have a church of atheism, atheists don't come together and have gatherings to discuss how they think about atheism (or theism), atheists usually don't care. They certainly don't come together or anything. |
Do a quick search for "atheist club" "atheist coalition" "atheist meeting" etc. and see what you find. |
That may qualify atheism as an interest, a hobby, a position, but it doesn't qualify it as a religion. Something must satisfy very strict and unique criteria to qualify as a religion. If your position here, Flakfizer, is that atheism is a position, an interest, a hobby or whatever then I don't think that's startling or even interesting, but if your position is that atheism is a religion, then clearly that doesn't follow. Not sure what you're arguing for.
To qualify as a religion, something must satisfy (a) and/or (b)....
(a) involve belief in an axiom
(b) be such that no piece of evidence could ever persuade one to change their position
Moon hoax advocates are essentially following a religion, because they satisfy (b). There's a huge amount of evidence for the Apollo guys having landed on the Moon (and all the 'anomalies' have been explained), but the Moon truthers won't give in. Same with evolution. Evolution having occurred is a fact (such is the amount of evidence in favor of it having occurred), but some don't believe it. Same with 9/11 truthers. Same with climate change hoax advocates. In all these cases, clear and overwhelming evidence is being rejected in favor of an alternative belief and, crucially, no piece of evidence, no matter how powerful, could ever make them change their minds. Consequently, atheism would become a religion (or perhaps a better way of putting it would be 'atheists would become engaged in religious-like behavior') if clear and overwhelming evidence were presented in favor of God's existence and they continued being atheists. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Should the day come when an athiest knocks on my door to warn me against damning myself by holding onto outdated religious beliefs, I'll definitely file it under religion. |
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Easter Clark
Joined: 18 Nov 2007
Location: Hiding from Yie Eun-woong
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| merlot wrote: |
When you truly discover through whatever catalyst�spiritual work, an instant rapture�or whatever, that everything is intricately connected to everything else, you take pause�then you see a metaphorical mountain before you. And you know your arduous journey has begun. You use your pain and bewilderment for fuel to climb to its peak.
Now, you see that if everything is connected. Well then, there is only One thing�God.
With this knowledge (a kind of a stew of a knowing mixed with rainbow infused ecstasy tidbits, but sprinkled with a diabolical seasoning accompanied with the darkest depression imaginable) and a few more treacherous climbs to those oh so beautiful, but oh so temporary plateaus ,one may one begins to accept this Great Truth of connectedness and begins to have flashes or inspirations of this cosmic connectedness with all there is, all there was, and all there will be.
A few more plateaus and he sheds his ego for great part, laughs at the rest; he is detaching from identification with his physical body and realizing his true eternal spiritual nature,
Soon an indescribable rapturous event happens and he merges with God and lets God look through his eyes. Oh my were all those steep climbs worth it, for now he has a Knowing that few will understand. For it is not comprehensible to one who has not done the work to reach the plateaus of Truth.
But it�s a pretty cool place when you arrive. Life on Earth becomes a vacation of sorts, because you have learned to think not from your animal mind, for you have broken free of the petty ego and have learned not to identify with your physical body so much, because you have discovered Truth, and it�s wondrous.
Yes, I believe in God. I am God. So are you in the exact degree you began to wake up, shed the ego and start on the arduous path of realizing we are all made of the same Stardust, life on this planet is a rare and precious interlude. We will return to where we came-- that oh so comfortable place we were so happy being before we were thrust into this physical life.
But dude, you have to let go of that entrapping ego that cages you in your small world. That�s what Jesus taught and many others.
Just try for one second to think from a Greater Perspective that is free of petty human emotions, It�s cool to be a part of everything�and to Know It. But just remember the path is treacherous but if you can endure it�well, you�ll SEE. |
Well said. I believe we are inseparable from our environment, and our senses only fool us into believing that we are separate from everything else. Thus "God" is within and without. And that includes you and me. Does a drop of water cease to exist when it falls into the ocean? |
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IncognitoHFX
Joined: 06 May 2007
Location: Yeongtong, Suwon
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| A dyslexic atheist does not believe in Dog. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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It goes:
Did you hear about the dyslexic, agnostic insomniac who stayed up all night wondering whether or not there is a dog? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:55 am Post subject: |
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Most god believers will say no piece of evidence, or no amount of evidence, will convince them to stop believing what their faith tells them. If the Vatican produced the body of jesus tomorrow and it was obvious he was never crucified, that would not change the minds of many christians. Would it change your belief? Religion is a belief regardless of evidence.
Most atheists would say there is an amount of evidence that would convince them to change their mind. I don't believe in god. I'm an atheist. But I have some very clear goal posts for what would make me change my mind. For example, if a self contained chaotic system magically produced order and provided information about the future that proved accurate and claimed to be the god of the bible, I would agree that's pretty good evidence for god. Atheism is the non belief of any thing or idea in the face of no of evidence.
Those who call atheism a religion end up making a primary error best illustrated by this example: a cat is really a dog. Both have fur, tails, claws, sharp teeth, suckle their young, have litters, eat meat. What's important is we categorize by important differences. These differences may be small but they are important. To call atheism a religion is exactly the same as trying to call a cat a dog because of the similarities, while willfully ignoring the differences. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| Easter Clark wrote: |
| Well said. I believe we are inseparable from our environment, and our senses only fool us into believing that we are separate from everything else. |
That seems to me a hypothesis that can't be falsified. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| friendoken wrote: |
| I do not mean for this to be facetious, sarcastic, or anything else of the kind, but, I believe I am god, and so are you, and you, and you. |
In the terminology of Paul Tillich, you are a "God withiner," as opposed to a holder of the more conventional view, who would be a "God withouter."
Kwangju Chicken, why didn't you provide an option for the uncommitted?
Then I could vote. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:43 am Post subject: |
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Atheism is the non belief of any thing or idea in the face of no of evidence.
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Who made this statement?
Oh by the way, if Atheism is the non belief of any thing or idea in the face of no evidence, why have I had to listen to over 30 years of people telling me that it is simply the opposite of a belief in a religious persona (God).
I don't hear too many people saying that they are atheists in regards to Horse Burger. It always seems to be used as against religion, could you tell me what other atheistic position you currently hold?
I am interested as Atheists of the 1920s apparently weren't atheist against anything else than religion and most athiests today reguritate old arguments. Therefore what atheist theories have continued since the 1920's?
Just curious as I need to learn a new fact today.
(EDITED) |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Quote: |
Atheism is the non belief of any thing or idea in the face of no of evidence.
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Who made this statement?
Oh by the way, if Atheism is the non belief of any thing or idea in the face of no evidence, why have I had to listen to over 30 years of people telling me that it is simply the opposite of a belief in a religious persona (God).
I don't hear too many people saying that they are atheists in regards to Horse Burger. It always seems to be used as against religion, could you tell me what other atheistic position you currently hold? |
Atheism is defined as a non belief in god or gods. It has taken on new meanings in recent years as meaning an active non belief in something. I hear the term used in software a lot.
| Quote: |
| I am interested as Atheists of the 1920s apparently weren't atheist against anything else than religion and most athiests today reguritate old arguments. Therefore what atheist theories have continued since the 1920's? |
A non sequitur. Why should atheists generate anything new other than statements about a non belief in god, an exposition of the lack of evidence for a god, and the harmful nature of a belief in god? |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Quote: |
Atheism is the non belief of any thing or idea in the face of no of evidence.
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Who made this statement?
Oh by the way, if Atheism is the non belief of any thing or idea in the face of no evidence, why have I had to listen to over 30 years of people telling me that it is simply the opposite of a belief in a religious persona (God).
I don't hear too many people saying that they are atheists in regards to Horse Burger. It always seems to be used as against religion, could you tell me what other atheistic position you currently hold?
I am interested as Atheists of the 1920s apparently weren't atheist against anything else than religion and most athiests today reguritate old arguments. Therefore what atheist theories have continued since the 1920's?
Just curious as I need to learn a new fact today.
(EDITED) |
Just because people say something means nothing. Most people who said it was the opposite were almost definitely religious and had no understanding of other ideas, such as Atheism. Looking at the Atheists of the 1920s has no use for talking about Athiesm today, especially since in those times religion was still rampant.
"Theism is the belief in (or knowledge of) God as an active, immanent force in the universe."
Therefore Atheism is the non-belief of it. It's not USED (sigh!) against religion. It is what some people think. I could say you are using Christianity against Atheism. 
Your post shows a very weak understanding of Atheism, and I hope I helped. You should look up some of this stuff yourself though. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:19 am Post subject: |
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Both interesting points from the above posters.
[quote][Why should atheists generate anything new other than statements about a non belief in god, an exposition of the lack of evidence for a god, and the harmful nature of a belief in god?/quote]
I guess because I would like to believe that they have the intelligence to think for themselves instead of regurgitating old ideas. Though if its ok to be professing to call others idiots (I know you didn't ) while failing to produce new ideas, people have to wonder about their ideas.
But thanks that was informative and interesting. Maybe we can sit down and discuss this topic in 50 years? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 4:42 am Post subject: |
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I guess because I would like to believe that they have the intelligence to think for themselves instead of regurgitating old ideas. Though if its ok to be professing to call others idiots (I know you didn't ) while failing to produce new ideas, people have to wonder about their ideas.
But thanks that was informative and interesting. Maybe we can sit down and discuss this topic in 50 years? |
Again a non sequitur. Why are new ideas needed? Beyond, I don't believe in Zeus (insert whatever name you now use for god), what new can one add to that beyond updating whatever name theists currently give the god they worship?
Regarding lack of evidence, it seems the theists rehash the same claims over and over. The responses should be suddenly different to the argument from design and god of the gaps?
Ultimately, you're being vague. What is your evidence atheists are not producing new ideas. Sorry if I don't take your authority as evidence for this claim. Douglas Adams, for example, had a rather funny response to the argument from design. In one of his books he had a bit about an intelligent puddle. The puddle fits so nicely into the hole that it can only believe the hole was created specially for it. The puddle dries up a bit and marvels at how well it fits into the new area, again marveling that the fit is so perfect it must have been created specially for it.
| Quote: |
| . . imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, �This is an interesting world I find myself in�an interesting hole I find myself in�fits me rather neatly, doesn�t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!� This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it�s still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything�s going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:10 am Post subject: |
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Agnosticism is the only way. I think....... 
Really though, to be a speck of dust pecking out an existence on a bigger speck of dust, floating around in a backwater of the universe, does not give you the right to assert that there is a God or not. You simply don't know. No one does. It's the height of arrogance to assume otherwise.
You can have your faith, but the faith of a single lifeform on a single planet, whose inhabitants have never even been further than the moon, does not make a validation. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: |
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Guess we all need answers, and here they are;
An atheist meets God |
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