Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee]

[yawarakaijin]

I'm not dodging the question my friend Joo, but my weekend is just about to start and I have to catch a train. A reply by Monday at the earliest.

[RJjr]

[catman]

[RJjr]

Here are some first-hand accounts from our brave sailors of the USS Liberty. If Joo Rip or any other Israel Firsters or anyone else who says these American sailors are a pack of liars, the USS Liberty Veterans Association is offering $10000.00 to anyone who can disprove that their story is the truth.

Survivor Gary Brummett said he �feels like someone who has been locked up for 40 years on a wrongful conviction.� Until the US government acknowledges the truth of the attack, Brummett says the survivors are forced to live with the anger and dismay of being betrayed by the country they served.

Gary Brummett is talking about you, Joo.

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"I find it very strange that some Americans can argue endlessly that the attack on the USS Liberty was a tragic accident and not the deliberate attack on a known American ship that survivors know it to have been.

A point that baffles me (and my shipmates) about that view is that the Israelis did NOT stop firing when they drew close enough to positively identify us as American.

I was lying in a stretcher in a starboard passageway just inboard of the wardroom and almost directly over the torpedo that exploded. I remember very clearly the warning that torpedo boats were approaching followed by the explosion, the ship lifting away from the blast, then settling back to starboard and the very real fear that it would continue to settle until it rolled over and sank. Moments later the torpedo boats approached within fifty feet of the ship. One boat stopped alongside and trained a heavy machinegun on a man who was standing alone on a hatch on the main deck, but did not fire even though the man gave the boatmen the finger. Then a boat moved to within fifty feet of the fantail where the ship displayed her name in large letters in English painted on the hull and her GTR5 numbers in even larger letters. The boatmen clearly examined those markings and can hardly have failed to see other very distinctive American markings and the American flag that flew from the mast. Yet, even though the Israeli government claims it was at that point that they offered help, never firing at us again after the torpedo explosion, this is not so. Almost every man on that ship recalls -- as I personally recall very clearly from my position outside the wardroom -- that the torpedo boats then circled the ship for a long time firing at close range at anything that moved. Men trying to aid their wounded shipmates on deck were fired upon. Men fighting fires were fired upon and recall seeing their fire hoses punctured by machinegun fire. This went on for several minutes. At one point the boatmen concentrated their fire near the waterline amidships, presumably hoping to blow up the boilers to hasten our demise. Finally they pulled a distance back from the ship. We figured they were waiting for us to sink. And then at 3:15, forty minutes after the torpedo explosion and in response to orders from the bridge to prepare to abandon ship, men launched the only three life rafts that seemed still usable. The boats quickly drew closer, machinegunned the liferafts and then took one aboard after the machine gun fire severed a line that had tethered it to the ship. At this point, apparently in response to messages in the air from the Sixth Fleet promising (falsely) that aircraft were en route to our aid, the boats left the area. It was another 75 minutes later, about 4:30, that they finally returned to signal, "Do you need help?"

Now that is not my recollection alone, but is the recollection of nearly every man in the ship. It is one of several reasons that we reject the Israeli claim that it was a "tragic accident" in which they identified us as American even while the torpedos were in the water, never fired again, and immediately offered help.

Our Congress, much to our dismay, has from the beginning accepted "at face value" the Israeli claim that they never fired again after the torpedo explosion. Survivors have never been allowed to testify to the contrary, either to Congress or to the Court of Inquiry.

Of course there are many other reasons for us to disbelieve the Israeli version of events. Among them, for instance, their contrived claim that the aircraft were called in by the torpedomen after we were picked up on radar from over 30 miles away (well beyond their maximum radar range) and mistakenly plotted to be moving 32 knots when in fact we were moving at only 5 knots. Or their claim that the numerous Israeli reconnaissance aircraft that we saw circling us all morning at very low level were actually high in the sky carrying troops to the front and were unaware of our presence below. Or their claim that they mistakenly identified us as the Egyptian cavalry's 40-year-old horse carrier El Quseir, when in fact El Quseir had been out of service for years which must have been well known to the Israeli Navy. All those and other things convince us that the Israeli account is not true. Yet I think most convincing of their deliberate intent is that they continued to fire for forty minutes after examining our markings from as close as fifty feet away, did not offer help until nearly two hours after the torpedo explosion, and then lied about it.

So we are convinced that they are lying about virtually the entire prelude to, conduct of, and aftermath of the attack. Together, these things have convinced every man on that ship including her commanding officer that the attack was deliberate.

Yet despite these things a few Americans seem to accept the preposterous claim that the attack was a mistake and that firing stopped with the torpedo explosion. One can accept and understand this attitude from an Israeli, as he would have a natural tendency to believe his country's version of events and to disbelieve contrary versions -- especially since he has no personal experience to draw upon. But how can an American disbelieve the virtually identical eyewitness reports of scores of surviving fellow Americans and accept instead the undocumented claims of the foreign power that tried to kill them? That is very difficult to understand or to accept.

The typical Israeli reaction is that we are liars or antiSemites, which of course we are not. We are American sailors honestly reporting an act of treachery at sea. At the very least we deserve your courtesy and understanding. -- Jim Ennes, Survivor

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We had been surveilled all morning and part of the afternoon by Israeli forces. They knew who we were. We heard them reporting over radio who we were and how we were sailing and where we were sailing. They saw the flag and everything else. We were in international waters.

At 2:00 the action started when we had just completed a general quarters drill. I had just come out or the engine room to get some fresh air when the firing started. That's when I took my shrapnel hit, nothing fantastic but pieces of shrapnel. I went back to the boiler room and prepared to start lighting off number one boiler to get steam to get out of there.

This persisted for probably 25 or 35 minutes with the aircraft rocketing us and hitting us with everything they had--napalm and cannon fire--and after that there was a comparatively small lull. We heard that they were getting hit all over the place and we could see the torpedo boats moving in and firing torpedoes at us, and then one hit and put a 40 foot hole in the side of the ship and knocked all power off.

By that time the ship's interior was blackened, you couldn't see anything except with battle lanterns. We were still in the process of lighting off the boiler and trying to head the ship out to see. The ship was listing and we got the word to prepare to abandon ship. We were ordered by Lieutenant Golden who was in charge in the engine room to exit, and the last one out of there was myself, and I had to cut off the boilers' fuel supply. I was the last one.

We got outside at the main battle dressing station where a lot of injuries were. We were just about to go topside when we heard a lot of shots and canon fire and machine gun fire. Evidently they were trying to pick off people who were fighting fires and trying to put life rafts in the water. They were picking these people off with machine guns. We were told, I didn't see them, but we were told that they were shooting up the life rafts that were in the water, so needless to say they weren't going to take survivors at all.

And so we headed back to our spaces and did not abandon ship. We stayed with it. And it continued probably for another 40 minutes with them shooting and finally after seeing that the ship was not going to sink they grabbed one of the life rafts and they exited the scene. And through that, the helicopters had come over loaded with Israeli troops. This lasted almost two hours and finally we got the ship turned around and boilers lit off and headed out to sea.

We also heard that nine minutes into the attack we had reached a message to the Sixth Fleet and they were on their way with aircraft to help us. Little did we know until afterwards that three sets of aircraft were turned back. -- John Hrankowski, Survivor

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I was on board the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967, and I can tell you without any doubt, the recount of the attack in the Ennes book is accurate and that there is much more to this issue than you are obviously aware.

First, let me thank you for caring enough to even look into it. So many Americans know nothing about the attack because of the politics involved, and so many others have a dual allegiance to the US and Israel and, when it comes to any problems between the two countries, they always lean towards Israel and so cannot see what happened in 1967 or, for that matter, in more recent history (e.g., Pollard spy case and the slaughter of Palestinians).

There is an enormous amount of material which is considered documented and accurate by both this country and Israel which clearly brings into question the accidental attack claim by the State of Israel. There have been discoveries over the last 35 years that have revealed attacking Israeli pilots identifying our ship and being told to attack anyway, identified US military intelligence personnel who were privy to various messages and transcripts clearly indicating the attack was a coordinated effort, and the sworn testimony of the survivors who, after all, were there. You may locate much of this material, and see the documentation for yourself, by simply doing a search on the Internet for "USS Liberty" and following all links. You will see many sites with accurate information, and some with not so accurate information, and many with a clear bias towards protecting Israel's reputation.

As for Jay Cristol's book - have not read it totally yet, but I can tell you without any doubt that much of his information and argument for the attack being an accident is based on half truths and highly questionable Israeli reports.

Let me give you something to think about, I hope, and something that will encourage you to look deeper into this historical moment.

1. The ships logs clearly indicate tracking first the torpedo boats and then the high-speed aircraft passing over them, both on a direct line to the USS Liberty.

2. The planes did not circle the ship trying to identify the ship, but, instead, approached the ship bow-on and came in shooting.

3. The planes were flying well below their top speed and many survivors who were fighting fires from the napalm and otherwise were topside performing assigned damage control noted that these planes were unmarked - this at a time when Israel was in control of the skies and had no reason to paint out the Star of David and other clearly Israeli markings.

4. A high ranking Israeli officer was interviewed several years later and clear states that Israel had identified the USS Liberty by June 7, 1967. This is consistent with the several documented overflights by Israeli slow-flying aircraft on the day prior to the attack which were clearly taking our picture for identification purposes.

5. Our flag was flying until the jets shot it away. We then hoisted another, and that was also shot away. Finally, we ran up the huge holiday flag - one of these shot-up flags is on display at the museum at the NSA Cryptologic Museum at Ft. Meade, Maryland. We were slowly sailing into the wind so the flag was standing out at all times and, while the pilots might not have seen it in a bow-on or stern-on attack posture, they certainly saw it as they crisscrossed the ship, attacking from both port and starboard. Please note that these pilots saw well enough to hit the four 50 cal machine gun mounts with at least two rockets each, put at least one rocket through all topside hatches/doorways, hit all antenna pods with two or more rockets, blew up the two small boats on board, and hit the only gasoline drum on board. Again, their speed allowed this degree of accuracy and they obviously had knowledge of our strategic targets.

6. One of the Israeli torpedo boat captains was also interviewed several years later and he said that, after one of the five torpedoes had hit the ship, he saw the colors of our flag and thought he had hit a Russian ship. Kind of puts a kink in the Israeli claim of June 1967 that we had no flag, doesn't it.

7. Cristol and Israel both give credibility to the Israeli claim of 1967 that the torpedo boats misread their radar to the point that they thought the "unknown" ship off the Sinai Peninsula was traveling in excess of 20 knots and that local Israeli field commanders reported shelling of their position from that area of the Med. Possible? Sure! But take the time to look a little deeper please - The torpedo boats identified us as the El Quisar (sp?), an Egyptian troop and animal carrier 1)known to be in an Egyptian port at that time, 2) unable to make even 8 knots, and 3) with absolutely no armament whatsoever. It gets better! This ship is about 2/3 the size of the USS Liberty, and has none of the topside antenna equipment, did not have a huge satellite dish on its stern, and was not painted USN grey with US information on both sides of the bow. The ship they said they thought we were could not go the speed they say they mistakenly thought we were going and had no means to attack a nything. Further, the Liberty had only 4 50 cal machine and was also unable to shell anything from its position some 13 miles offshore.

8. There are documents available from the LBJ Library that clearly indicate that LBJ wanted to seek reelection, did not want to offend this country's Jewish lobby, and had specific recommendations from his political advisors to stay at arm's length from anything having to do with the USS Liberty.

9. There are a number of plausible reasons for the attack, and

1) the accurate time-line of that day indicate that, in fact, taking the Golan Heights was not known until it was accomplished.

2) You might also find it interesting that Moshe Dyan, the head of the IDF at that time, said in an on-camera interview that this expansion had nothing to do with state security, but was, in his words, executed to take this property solely to increase the power and financial wealth of the political and some of the military leaders of that day.

3) There is also the very real issue of the added US support that would come if the US and the world thought a US ship was sunk by the Arab States - and the attack came very close to accomplishing that very thing. We were silenced in the first minutes of the attack and only got word out because our technicians were able to rig a temporary antenna under fire, an antenna that had never worked before but was made usable by their efforts and by a partial roc ket hit that somehow "fixed" whatever the initial problem was. Without that "word" getting out, they would have sunk us with all hands and, I suppose, planted some evidence that the deed was done by Arab State vessels/planes.

4) Israeli-documented slaughter of Arab prisoners at El Arish (sp?) that day could have contributed to the "justification" for the attack. Maybe not, but the fact that this slaughter occurred is documented by statements from Israeli soldiers, so, who knows. There may be other related possibilities, but the point is that reasons exist and there is much more than reasonable doubt that the attack was a pre-planned, coordinated air and sea attack which took 34 American lives.

By the way, if you wish to have any credibility in discussions about this subject, I suggest that you do not refer to sworn testimony of survivors who were there that day as "hearsay!" As for Jim Ennes being wounded so everything he said must have been second hand, simply not so, and to suggest that does him and other survivors a great dis-service and indicates that you have not researched this very well. Remember, the Captain was also wounded and I can personally promise you, his story was not "hearsay" and was very accurate.

Oh yes, there are many men present that day who saw for themselves the Israeli torpedo boats deliberately machine gun the life rafts and we have pictures taken just after the attack ended (about the same time as it became known we got word out to the fleet about the attack)which clearly show all life raft positions empty or with destroyed rafts clearly visible.

One other fact you might find interesting which relates back to the jets - their speed that day allowed them to target fire hoses in use by damage control personnel, and the men using them, during the attack. Again, multiple eyewitness accounts are documented concerning this and the use of "burning jelly" canisters dropped on our decks.

If you truly care about the truth, take the time to look into this more deeply. Consider the growing number of senior military and political people who publicly denounce this attack as deliberate. Consider the document facts, many of which are agreed to by both sides. Consider the contradictions in the "official" story over these many years, and consider Israel's history, short though it may be, which is full of examples of drastic military actions against friend and foe alike, military and civilian, in the name of Israel's security.

Finally, although it has nothing to do directly with the attack on the USS Liberty, I mention the Pollard case. Strange that you seem to be defending him when it is documented fact that Israel paid him to spy against his country. Let me put it another way, Israel, our "friend," paid him to spy against their claimed ally, the US. Is it really so hard to believe that this same "ally" found it to be in their best interests to attempt to sink a US intelligence ship with all hands back in 1967?

Cristol's book, and several others by Israeli writers or friends of Israel, reaches the wrong conclusions. It does not take much more that a quick look at the documented facts of this case to realize that the Israeli claim of an "accident" fails to hold up. I hope you will take the time to dig deeper and, keeping an open mind about this subject, consider all possibilities.

Again, thank you for your interest in this historical event.

Joseph C. Lentini CTOC
USN-ret USS Liberty Survivor

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BY PHILLIP F. TOURNEY

SURVIVOR OF THE USS LIBERTY

As I sit in my office beginning to write my first article for American Free Press newspaper, I look out my window. I see snow covered peaks, nature at its best in Colorado. It calms me to see such beauty and thank God I�m alive with my family. As I start to write, my heart is beginning to race, my palms are sweating. I�m not as comfortable as I was just a few moments ago. I know all of you know the story of the attack on our ship, the USS LIBERTY, by the government of Israel, but it needs to be repeated.

June 8, 1967 I was a 20 year old 3rd class petty officer in damage control at the time of this sneak attack from our so-called ally, Israel. We were identified as American and friendly many hours before the slaughter began at 2:00 P.M.

The Israeli jet aircraft were ruthless and stubborn in their attempt to sink and murder all hands aboard. They hit every antennae on our ship, no accident for sure. The Israeli reconnaissance aircraft took pictures of our ship in the morning hours, nothing was missed. The attacking aircraft dropped napalm on the bridge of our ship to burn us alive.

Soon after the jets were done with us we see 3 motor torpedo boats approaching our ship at a high rate of speed. We then learned who our attackers were.

We saw 3 flags marked with the Star of David. We were in shock because the Israelis were supposed to be our allies! We had had no idea who was attacking us until then. The attacking jet aircraft were unmarked. The torpedo boats maneuvered themselves into a torpedo launch attitude, now come the 5 to 6 torpedoes. The captain was doing his best to maneuver the ship to avoid sudden death. The torpedoes whizzed by our ship, forward and aft with 1 hitting its mark, almost dead mid-ships, blowing to bits 25 American heroes who stood their ground below the water line and accepted their fate, doing their duty for the United States Government.

The torpedo gunboats were not even close to being done with us. The torpedo gunmen shot at our fire fighters and stretcher bearers, anything that moved. They were shooting at our water line to blow up the boilers inside and finish the job of sinking us.

The captain had given the order to abandon ship, as it appeared we were about to roll over. There were 3 life rafts left that were floatable. We put them over the side so we could put our most severely wounded in them to try to save their lives. The torpedo gunmen would have none of that and blew 2 of them out of the water. They took the 3rd raft aboard their boat, seeing it as an obvious trophy for all their hard work. The torpedo gunmen continued their assault until I guess they ran out of ammunition. They circled the ship and left.

Old Glory was still on her mast, 7� x 13� holiday colors. We thought the attack was over. Two Israeli helicopters approached our ship with armed gunmen at the ready to finish us off. They were there a short time and left in the same direction they came. We had no idea why they didn�t shoot at us. We wondered if they were finally done with their murderous carnage on a virtually unarmed ship which only had 4 50 caliber machine guns that had been taken out by the jets on the first pass when the attack began.

Little did the crew know that Terry Halbardier, an ET, got off an SOS from an antennae that was not hit by the Israeli heat seeking missiles because it was taken off line due to a malfunction before the attack. The SOS he sent stated we were under attack by unknown jet aircraft. This message was sent out within 15 minutes of the attack and was picked up by the USS SARATOGA and the USS AMERICA. Captain Tully of the USS SARATOGA sent ready aircraft to our aid only to have them recalled. The USS AMERICA also sent rescue aircraft to come to our aid. These life saving planes were recalled not once but twice. These orders came straight from the White House, first from Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara and then from President Johnson himself. Johnson said he was not about to attack our �ally�, Israel. How did he know who was attacking our ship when we didn�t even know? Help did not arrive until 18 hours later when the American rescue aircraft could have been there in 15 to 20 minutes driving off the torpedo boats and saving precious American lives.

What remained was a ship with a 40 x 40 foot torpedo hole in her side, 821+ canon and rocket holes, thousands of rounds of fifty caliber armor piercing bullets and napalm that had been burning up our ship. Thirty four American souls were murdered, 173 were wounded, which constituted attempted murder, out of a crew of 294. Two thirds of the crew had been murdered or wounded.

Israel and our government, in this 2 hour attack, had come up with a plan to sink our ship, blame it on Egypt and bring the U.S. into the Six Day War. If this so called accident was so cut and dry, why were all records sealed tighter than Fort Knox? Israel got by with cold-blooded murder and other war crimes and it�s only a matter of time until they do it again, perhaps on a ship off the coast of Iran. Israel controls America�s fate and our elected officials bow to their every whim.

I love my country and will not stand by and let this continue. While there is time, we must do what we can to save our sinking ship of state. In many ways, America today is the USS Liberty after that 2 hour attack taking place 40 years ago. We are badly hit and stand the chance of sinking into the abyss with everyone being lost forever unless something is done immediately. Write your president and congressmen and let them know you know what is going on and you will not fight anymore for Israel. Israel has 300 nukes, so let them take care of themselves. There is nothing, neither in the Middle East nor elsewhere, that is worth one more drop of precious American blood.

The leaders of our country who swore an oath to protect this nation ordered the survivors of the LIBERTY to never repeat this piece of history under penalty of jail or worse. 40 years ago, another nation got away with cold-blooded murder on the high seas, and as an American veteran, let me say this for the record�NO ONE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO GET BY WITH COLD-BLOODED MURDER, AND ESPECIALLY NOT ISRAEL, NOT THEN AND NOT NOW.

The USS LIBERTY VETERANS ASSOCIATION is offering $10,000.00 to anyone who can disprove that our story is the truth. as of this moment, no one from the pro-Israeli crowd has accepted the challenge.

2007 By Phil Tourney, survivor of the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty

[Jandar]

Wow! That could have been a whole nuther thread.

[mnhnhyouh]

[RJjr]

[Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee]

RJjr"]


By the way if the US government ever changes their position on the subject I will too. In the meantime who the hell made you arbiter of what happened?

By the way can you explain why Israel if they were intending to sink the boat didn't just bomb the boat with a steel bomb . That would have left no survivors. I mean they took all the time to plan the conspiracy but they left out the part that would have got them off the hook?

[Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee]

mnhnhyouh"]

[Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee]

[riverboy]

[mnhnhyouh]

[Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee]

[RJjr]