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33 Ministers to Defy the Law

 
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:08 pm    Post subject: 33 Ministers to Defy the Law Reply with quote

Defying a federal tax law they consider unjust, 33 ministers across the country will take to their pulpits this Sunday and publicly endorse a candidate for president.

They plan to then send copies of their sermons to the Internal Revenue Service, hoping to provoke a challenge to a law that bars religious organizations and other nonprofits that accept tax-deductible contributions from involvement in partisan political campaigns...

The organizers of Pulpit Freedom Sunday are convinced that the protest will result in a court challenge to the law. Mr. Stanley said the law was so unclear that, �I anticipate getting to federal court, certainly the appeals court.� But Robert W. Tuttle, a professor of law and religion at the George Washington University Law School, found that unlikely.

�It�s settled law,� Professor Tuttle said. �People can unsettle law that�s settled, but I think that it is very, very unlikely that a lower federal court would reach any other conclusion except that religious organizations have no constitutional right to engage in political speech while accepting deductible contributions.�

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/26/us/politics/26preach.html?_r=1&ref=politics&oref=slogin

I prefer preachers not tell me how to vote and my gov't not tell me how to pray. Seems fair enough. Churches that want to act politically should lose their tax-free status.

And I'm really tired of conservatives bringing up old issues and refighting the same old battles, as is mentioned at the end. I guess technically that would make them reactionaries.
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Leslie Cheswyck



Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:02 pm    Post subject: Re: 33 Ministers to Defy the Law Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
I prefer preachers not tell me how to vote...


Me, too. The reverends Jackson and Sharpton would do well to STFU, I think. But it is their right to speak as they wish, and --- believe it or not --- I like living in a country where this is not forbidden, or in any way censured by government.


Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Churches that want to act politically should lose their tax-free status.


That would violate the First Amendment.


Last edited by Leslie Cheswyck on Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. When Jackson and/or Sharpton are speaking in the pulpit they should stay off political issues...if they want their church to keep their tax free status. There is no conflict with the First Amendment. The conflict is with the tax laws. All preachers have the same free speech rights the rest of us do. They don't have a 'right' to tax free status.
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Leslie Cheswyck



Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
The conflict is with the tax laws.


Quote:
Congress shall make no law...
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Milwaukiedave



Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think if it does go to court, this one has the US Supreme Court written all over it.
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daskalos



Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leslie Cheswyck wrote:
Ya-ta Boy wrote:
The conflict is with the tax laws.


Quote:
Congress shall make no law...


In what way would subjecting a church to taxes involve prohibiting the free exercise of religion?

To tax is not to prohibit the free exercise of religion. Taxing personal income is not construed as infringing on the right to pursuit of happiness or liberty, after all.

We grant tax-free status to charitable organizations that stay out of politics or profit-making enterprises. Churches that get political or whose pastors live in church funded mansions and who earn mega-salaries should not qualify.
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Leslie Cheswyck



Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This issue is whether taxing churches amounts to a law "respecting an establishment of religion... ", as the First Amendment words it. If it is, then forget about it, it's going nowhere.
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flakfizer



Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:40 am    Post subject: Re: 33 Ministers to Defy the Law Reply with quote

Leslie Cheswyck wrote:
Ya-ta Boy wrote:
I prefer preachers not tell me how to vote...


Me, too. The reverends Jackson and Sharpton would do well to STFU, I think.

Laughing Zing. Can I get an Amen?
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PBRstreetgang21



Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Location: Orlando, FL--- serving as man's paean to medocrity since 1971!

PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt this would make it as far as the supreme court. Its pretty much settled that religion cannot enter into the political area.

I wonder why they don't pay taxes to begin with. I mean why are religious organizations tax free anyway? They benefit from the police, fire dept, and all the other services taxpayers do, they outta pay their fair share.
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Leslie Cheswyck



Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PBRstreetgang21 wrote:
I doubt this would make it as far as the supreme court. Its pretty much settled that religion cannot enter into the political area.

I wonder why they don't pay taxes to begin with. I mean why are religious organizations tax free anyway? They benefit from the police, fire dept, and all the other services taxpayers do, they outta pay their fair share.


Well, when a preacher, say Jackson, stands up and says something about "social justice" from the pulpit. Is that political? Should his church pay taxes now? As much as I despise the man, I say let him speak. (Besides, and this is besides the point, I'll bet his church does do fair amount of charity.)

Again, churches are tax exempt because of the First Amendment. I'm no lawyer in Constitutional law, maybe someone else can either explain it better than I can, or refute my argument altogether. But as far as I can tell, that's it.

Of course churches benefit from police, fire protection and other government services. But churchgoers all pay their taxes as individuals. Never heard anyone say "Hey, I'm a member of the XYZ religion, I shouldn't have to pay taxes."

An interesting argument would be, that since religious organizations do not pay taxes their property is not to be protected by the state. Would the fire department be (legally) just in refusing to put out a fire on church property? Hmmm. Kuros?
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leslie Cheswyck wrote:


An interesting argument would be, that since religious organizations do not pay taxes their property is not to be protected by the state. Would the fire department be (legally) just in refusing to put out a fire on church property? Hmmm. Kuros?


I don't know, Leslie.

*checks his Con Law syllabus*

Bump this thread in the Spring and I might have something more to contribute.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CNN.com has a video clip of an interview with one of the ministers planning to endorse McCain from the pulpit. In the interview, he's sitting in a pew in church. It looks to me like that church can afford to kick in a nice sum to help out on the Wall Street bailout.

For them to do this at this time, 5 weeks before the election, is a political move designed to inject religion into politics.
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Leslie Cheswyck



Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
CNN.com has a video clip of an interview with one of the ministers planning to endorse McCain from the pulpit. In the interview, he's sitting in a pew in church. It looks to me like that church can afford to kick in a nice sum to help out on the Wall Street bailout.

For them to do this at this time, 5 weeks before the election, is a political move designed to inject religion into politics.


Nobody doubts that, Ya-ta. But if that violates some law, we'd like to know what that law is. And if that law violates the Constitution, we'd like to know about that, too.


The abolitionist, temperence, and the civil rights movements were religious "injections" into politics, too.










*Edit:
Quote:
It looks to me like that church can afford to kick in a nice sum to help out on the Wall Street bailout.


Whether they have five dollars or five hundred million dollars is irrelevant. Unless, of course you support a government shakedown of religious organizations. You are not suggesting that, are you?
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