Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Gatsby]

It's fascinating what you can learn, or at least notice, teaching English as a second language. For example, why is the letter "C" sometimes pronounced like an "S" and sometimes like a "K"?

If you don't know what I'm talking about, reread the first paragraph.

My theory is that it has something to do with ancient Latin. When I was a kid, people generally pronounced the C in Latin words as an S. But now I am hearing some people pronounce it as a K.

For example, "Cicero" was sisero, but I have heard it more recently pronounced kikero.

But maybe I was misinformed. I always thought Scylla (as in Scylla and Charybdis) was silla, but I have been told it should be pronounced skyla. But I always assumed Charybdis was pronounced karibdis.

So I am wondering whether the inconsistency originated with ancient Latin, or whether the inconsistency arose in the inconsistent versions of pronunciation of ancient Latins at different points in history, or in different regions. Perhaps the Church had a different style of pronunciation from, say, England? After all, who could have known for sure how the ancient Greeks pronounced stuff?

While we're at it, why would you need the letter C if you already have S and K?

[losing_touch]

I don't have a set of data in front of me and am too lazy to think too much about this. However, think about the endings of the following words:

bets, begs, bridges

Say the words out loud. There are three different endings there. There fact of the matter is that English orthography does not represent the sounds of the language very well. In this case it is assimilation rules at work.

[bogey666]

English pronounciation has nothing to do with Latin. In fact, we have had to adopt certain Latin words with their pronounciation from Latin.. and Latin words aren't subject to typical english rules, like plurals (.e.g datum/data, etc)

Compared to most langages English is pretty effed up... because in many/most, you speak as you write.

Only in english can the same sound be written 2 or many more different ways.

Any other languages where the word sound for "no" can be written as "no" or "know

[yingwenlaoshi]

[yingwenlaoshi]

[Cheonmunka]

It's a lot about mutation, the change of sounds. Also a lot to do with borrowing.
A lot of words that came originally from Latin (2000 years ago) eventually changed vowels after the initial consonant. So, something like 'caseus' with a hard c became 'caesi,' 'ceasi' then 'ciese' to 'cheese.' So this dipthongization altered the initial consonant. Another example, 'casere' with a hard c was the original to our now softly introduced 'caesar.'

The Germanic language (Old English) had some hard sounds. 'Beswican sceolden.' It gave us 'cild' now 'child.' It had 'god,' meaning 'good.'
But for the modern hard c that we use most of that comes from the Danes and Anglos of the early middle ages into Britain. A lot of sch's and sc's like scab, scrape and school. They used a lot the final __k endings that we may now spell as ___ck. (I don't know why we spell sky and not scy though.) The Anglos also did borrow from Christianity, so a lot of Latin words there, school for one, calendar as another. (I wonder what the pronunciation of 'circle' was like?)
So, Latin introduced through them and adding more Latin onto the Latin words already in the country, words like candle, cleric, cook, cap ...

But then, the Franks then came along with their soft c words like 'ceap' (cheap.) French may have reinforced different types of c pronunciation.
(And what they had done to Latin would have pleased the ancestors of Gaul.)

Britain had a Germanic language. Well, it had Celtic too. (Apart from some place names Celtic's not a root of English.) Then it had Latin, a big enough influence onto OE. Then it had Scandanavian Anglo stuff. Then it had French. Then it had a movement for English emphasizing good ole English, without the latest French stuff, which brought back some of the old words and ways of compounding them, but noone especially Shakespeare denied the borrowed words.
Employing all the above languages and borrowings the first dictionary of the English language was made, and here we are, a hodgepodge of hard and soft - with heaps of synonyms and a lot of variety in our sounds.

[ajgeddes]

[yingwenlaoshi]

[xeno439]

[Cheonmunka]

We learned at Auckland Grammar school, where I studied Latin for two years, hard C's all the way. But then look, a natural evolution could have easily occured in Italy and Kikero (if that was the original) could have easily changed to Sisero or Cello or what have you in Italian. And then, later after a few changes that word, we get the word ... language is evolutionary, especially when it is mixed with other languages and over time.
I distinctly remember though our teacher telling us about the hard C rule for Latin. 'Caecilius est in horto.' 'Kikilius is in the garden.'

Skila/Shila (Scylla) is Greek. Not Latin.

[Gatsby]

Sorry, I have never watched "Prison Break." Is it about hagwon FTs?

I always thought it was silla, but someone who had named his half coyote dog Scylla insisted it was pronounced Skylla. And it seems I have seen this used at times. But the internet suggests the correct American pronunciation is, indeed, silla. So the C is silent.

As to Cicero, here is an opinion:

[Cheonmunka]

There you go, the Greeks had a soft C to be pleasant.
The Latins the hard C to be a little tough.
The Danes the hard aspirated K for their long haired battle crys.
The French had the gay sounding C's.

We are all well-rounded.

[Gatsby]

Socrates?

[Cheonmunka]

Excellent question.

[ajgeddes]