|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| There are alien life forms in the universe |
| I dont know .. but im going with yes |
|
80% |
[ 46 ] |
| well cant be sure. but im saying no.. |
|
19% |
[ 11 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 57 |
|
| Author |
Message |
OneWayTraffic
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
|
 Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:19 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Biblethumper wrote: |
God cares for man in that he has out of his own good mercy from all eternity elected some to everlasting glory and entered into a *beep* of grace to deliver them out of the estate of sin and misery and to bring them into an estate of salvation by a redeemer.
Additionally, "All things work to the good for them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." |
Ahh, religion. Offering certainty without evidence since time immemorial. On the other hand, all science has is evidence without certainty. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| OneWayTraffic wrote: |
| Still it would only take one sucessful species. Self replicating probes moving at any decent speed would cover the galaxy in a few million years. |
Well, I find the whole notion bunkum, frankly speaking. The motivation for the notion is the likelihood of creatures on other planets. The position appears to be that one can legitimately doubt the likelihood since creatures capable of traveling vast distances (or creating von Neumann machines) and colonizing other planets is not demonstrable. Simply not serious. The dinosaurs didn�t think about space. Whether alien creatures have abstract consciousness and explore space is dependent on their evolution (which is dependent on their environment).
| Onewaytraffic wrote: |
| Anyway my point is: We just can't know for sure. There's little objective, non inferential evidence either way. It seems overwhelmingly likely that we're not alone but I'm not going to add aliens to the list of known species until someone goes out and drags one home. |
Sure. It�s all probabalistic, as you said, but so is the notion offered in opposition. It�s a binary. (a) life elsewhere in the universe has 100% likelihood, (b) aliens demonstrably not conquering other parts of the universe removes ____% from (a). I know which I prefer. Lack of concrete evidence for �Earth is not the sole civilization� being false is poor criteria for lack of belief given the nutty numbers and likelihood.
The universe is 13,700 million years old. The universe � the observed universe rather � is at least 93,000 million light years in diameter because of expansion from the origin. And the expansion is speeding up! Hang on though, how, if nothing can go faster than light, is the universe 93 billion light years across, at least, despite being 14 billion years old? General Relatively has the answer. Clearly, proponents of (b) need to wire their heads and their asses together and get with freaking program already. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OneWayTraffic
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Justin Hale wrote: |
| OneWayTraffic wrote: |
| Still it would only take one sucessful species. Self replicating probes moving at any decent speed would cover the galaxy in a few million years. |
Well, I find the whole notion bunkum, frankly speaking. The motivation for the notion is the likelihood of creatures on other planets. The position appears to be that one can legitimately doubt the likelihood since creatures capable of traveling vast distances (or creating von Neumann machines) and colonizing other planets is not demonstrable. Simply not serious. The dinosaurs didn�t think about space. Whether alien creatures have abstract consciousness and explore space is dependent on their evolution (which is dependent on their environment).
| Onewaytraffic wrote: |
| Anyway my point is: We just can't know for sure. There's little objective, non inferential evidence either way. It seems overwhelmingly likely that we're not alone but I'm not going to add aliens to the list of known species until someone goes out and drags one home. |
Sure. It�s all probabalistic, as you said, but so is the notion offered in opposition. It�s a binary. (a) life elsewhere in the universe has 100% likelihood, (b) aliens demonstrably not conquering other parts of the universe removes ____% from (a). I know which I prefer. Lack of concrete evidence for �Earth is not the sole civilization� being false is poor criteria for lack of belief given the nutty numbers and likelihood.
The universe is 13,700 million years old. The universe � the observed universe rather � is at least 93,000 million light years in diameter because of expansion from the origin. And the expansion is speeding up! Hang on though, how, if nothing can go faster than light, is the universe 93 billion light years across, at least, despite being 14 billion years old? General Relatively has the answer. Clearly, proponents of (b) need to wire their heads and their asses together and get with freaking program already. |
First, we don't know that aliens haven't spread their influence to other parts of the galaxy/universe. We are terribly out of the way here on our planet. It's certainly possible that we will, in time detect evidence of other civilisations.
Second, while the development of a technology capable of colonising large parts of the galaxy seems remote, is it really any more remote than than the probability of humans arising from chordates, itself a fantasically low probability event given the starting conditions?
The development of life, any life let alone a full on technological civilisation, relies on a string of fortunate occurances. I don't see any fundalmental reason why we should draw the line at somewhere near our current level and say that's it.
So Fermis remains: Where is everybody? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Fermi is obviously a total douchebag.  The universe is 93 billion light years and counting. Creatures potentially at the other end are further in the past than when the universe began. The universe is rather ridiculous. Other creatures on other planets and satellites is of manifest certainty. Asking �well if it�s so certain where are they all? Why is space empire not demonstrable?� is a childish binary. He introduces the ridiculous in an attempt to make the certain dubitable.
| OneWayTraffic wrote: |
| I don't see any fundalmental reason why we should draw the line at somewhere near our current level and say that's it |
Of course I agree, but intelligences so advance as to achieve awesome distance (and colonize!) is wild stuff, far wilder than the simple bare bones existence I�m advocating is certain. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
idonojacs
Joined: 07 Jun 2007
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
It's too early to tell.
Last edited by idonojacs on Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OneWayTraffic
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Justin Hale wrote: |
Fermi is obviously a total douchebag. The universe is 93 billion light years and counting. Creatures potentially at the other end are further in the past than when the universe began. The universe is rather ridiculous. Other creatures on other planets and satellites is of manifest certainty. Asking �well if it�s so certain where are they all? Why is space empire not demonstrable?� is a childish binary. He introduces the ridiculous in an attempt to make the certain dubitable.
| OneWayTraffic wrote: |
| I don't see any fundalmental reason why we should draw the line at somewhere near our current level and say that's it |
Of course I agree, but intelligences so advance as to achieve awesome distance (and colonize!) is wild stuff, far wilder than the simple bare bones existence I�m advocating is certain. |
Have you read the wiki article on Fermi's? It's an interesting read, giving all the logical possibilities and the arguments for and against. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| idonojacs wrote: |
| I haven't read this entire thread. But I get the impression that none of you knows what you are talking about. |
I get that impression as well every time someone comes forward with the belief that we're visited by aliens on a regular basis.
Funny old world, what? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| idonojacs wrote: |
| It's too early to tell. |
I know exactly what I'm talking about, kthx. Creatures on other planets has 100% likelihood. I don't know what the likelihood is of visits, but I don't believe it's 100%. It's difficult to really get anywhere. The universe is so big and so ridiculous, light speed travel (10 million million km, or 10 trillion km, per year approx) is woefully inadequate - we need either to manipulate the universe or travel at many times the speed of light (and Einstein said that's impossible). Travel through black holes? Forget it. Black holes extinguish all matter (the whole point of a black hole).
Most reasonable, sane, decent people - so excluding theists - agree with me that the likelihood of alien creatures on alien planets/satelites is straightforwardly 100% but whether the likelihhod of visits is less likely is where opinions divide. Some folks posit that the likelihood of visits is also 100% because of the practically infinite possibility of the universe. I suppose they have a point. In my view, bare bones existence is more likely than intergalactic travel, but I reluctantly agree that the distinction seems arbitrary when we consider what OneWayTraffic has said. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
UFO.The.Greatest.Story.Ever.Denied.2006
people need to watch this documentary to open their eyes because people are walking around with blinkers on! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PeteJB
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You forget, in the 70's SETI had a hint of success when a powerful radio transmission was detected coming from a distant star. By the time instruments were trained onto it, the signal had vanished and it remains to this day a mystery. No one can say for sure exactly what the transmission was, be it from a natural source or an artificial one.
There is just so much real estate out there, that any signs of intelligent life may exist on the other side of the galaxy. We would never know they were there, and vice versa. Also keep in mind they are continuing to look for signs of primitive life on Mars, and signs that primitive life may have once existed - if they can prove that it does/did, then the chances of life being encountered go up exponentially. Two planets in one solar system containing life? If that becomes a fact, then there is a chance life is going to be very common not just in the universe, but in a single cluster of stars. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sojourner1
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Location: Where meggi swim and 2 wheeled tractors go sput put chug alugg pug pug
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Honestly, I don't believe intelligent life forms can make it all the way to the Earth as it's in one very isolated far away stretch of the galaxy. There just isn't any other worlds near enough for aliens to travel here from as other worlds are so many many light years away. Remember, a light year is the distance it takes to travel at the speed of light which is virtually impossible for physical matter, including lifeforms and their technology, to travel that fast. Maybe if the Earth was near the center of the galaxy other worlds would be near enough to make contact with, because in and near the center is where many suns and universe systems occur more frequently than this far away from the center. We're so far out, you can see most of the Milky Way galaxy on a Summer night directly over head. It's sure wishful thinking that intelligent life forms can travel to the Earth.
Out here, we are alone, but that's not to say aliens don't exist, because there's many many worlds. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PeteJB
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah, watch Farscape, all the alien guys live in a dense part of the galaxy whereas we are alone.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joshuahirtle27
Joined: 23 Mar 2008
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The question of extra terrestrial life has a profound meaning for the over all human race. If we (the inhabitants of the earth) the only life in the universe then we are special for that reason. If we are not then we have a special place in what could be considered a larger multispecies community which we are in no way ready to join. We can barely call ourselves sentient in some cases. The male of our species goes retarded over the breasts of the female and the species as a whole is a warmongering bunch parasites who can't even get past a language barrier let alone any cultural differences that come up between us.
Our own world is deeply divided along political lines and ideals of government that are flawed and corrupted beyond comprehension. We can't even accept that we're the same on the inside as the next human... I mean my wife was told by a Dr. here in Korea that it was impossible to tell how pregnant she was cause North Americans have a different physiology than that of Koreans.
Imagine if we actually encountered a race where their physiology was different than ours. If black skin and red blood with the same internal mechanics freaks us out than imagine the havoc that green blood, copper skin, and different internal workings would bring.
Humans are far to violent and aggressive to meet another intelligent species. We are too xenophobic and stupid to just say hello and be friendly. The outer limits did an episode where another species came to our system, made contact and the US tried to destroy them. The result was the US congress being destroyed and the Extra Terrestrials working peacefully with the rest of the world.
But even if we meet someone out there among the stars, after we put away our petty differences it will take a vehicle of extraordinary power and speed to traverse the expanses between the stars. The magical thing about barriers and physical laws are, they can be broken. At one time it was said that someone could not travel faster than 10 miles per hour, then it was "nobody can fly" then "no body could possible travel faster than sound". What is the next barrier we are to overcome? The theory of relativity is a theory still. Even though it's essentially proven... I'm sure there's some way around it.
The likelihood of life on other worlds isn't small. You just have to have the right variables. The likelihood of us finding it and communicating effectively before the end of this millennium is significantly less. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| sojourner1 wrote: |
| Honestly, I don't believe intelligent life forms can make it all the way to the Earth as it's in one very isolated far away stretch of the galaxy. There just isn't any other worlds near enough for aliens to travel here from as other worlds are so many many light years away. Remember, a light year is the distance it takes to travel at the speed of light which is virtually impossible for physical matter, including lifeforms and their technology, to travel that fast. . |
Well 500 years ago man couldn�t believe air travel would ever be possible
50 years ago man couldn�t believe you could send data across the world in seconds!
But man figured out how to do it and now it�s all so logical!
Alien life forms might be BILLIONS of years ahead of us in evolution! They have bigger brains, there technology advancements are inconceivable to us, they have taken our science fiction and made it reality 1 million times over... there understanding of Intergalactic travel makes it very possible.
Look where we were 100 years ago! Look at us now!
Imagine where we will be 1000 years from now if we stay on this course!
10.000 years from now...
100.000 years,
1 million...
1 billion!
So Aliens visiting us is not impossible...
Our own evolution proves it...
| Quote: |
| Remember, a light year is the distance it takes to travel at the speed of light which is virtually impossible for physical matter, including lifeforms and their technology, to travel that fast |
well we believe that to be true without experiements and becuase we dont have the brains to understand it another way.. we are just to stupid to figure it out right now.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PeteJB
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| It's easy to deny evolution and development when you live in such a stubborn and young world. We will always deny things that we cannot understand. We don't live long enough to learn any better. If humans could live for 500 years, then you would begin to accept that what was once thought impossible is actually possible. People believed the Earth was flat, it was proven otherwise. People never conceived of things like machines, cars, planes, computers - until one day SOMEONE made the first step in that direction. We cannot see what lies ahead of us, because we haven't formed the foundation of understanding the next "big invention". But there is always someone out there who will form a thought, that thought leads to more thoughts, and before you know it a few years later you've got some fat Large Hadron Collider or something sitting in the ground - a product of a single mans thoughts, years later turned into reality. Just because we don't know how to build a light speed engine, doesn't mean that one day it won't happen. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
