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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| BreakfastInBed wrote: |
| prideofidaho wrote: |
| Sorry, but why is it so priceless? Is it one of those "It's funny 'cause it's true" things? Or is it a "Oh, cute!!! look what SHE said" Or maybe it's something else. I'm just asking. |
KILLED!! They've been KILLED!! Women are most affected?! Let me rephrase it. They've been KILLED!! KILLED!! What's more "affected" than that?
Like I said, I think I know what you're driving at, I've read too about the extreme sufferings of women, children, and the elderly in wartime. And I have no particular beef with the basic tenets of feminism as I understand them. I have a mother and sister whom I love dearly and want to see live in a just world. |
I do believe in equality of worth and pay between males and females. No gender is more important than the other. I do think that the education system and media has brainwashed for some decades many women to think ill of males and also to encourage bad behavior amongst males. The general forces of socialization have ruined many males and females, but we focus more on the females, but males are responsible for more violence in society, though, collectively, males and females are responsible for the general health of the collective culture.
The dynamic between males and females must be much healthier, and it is not so healthy with the high divorce rate in North America and with the US and Australia having some of the highest rates when it comes to having single females, it shows that mentally and culturally has changed in terms of facilitating connections between people of the male gender and people of the female gender. Of course, those said countries could also have so many single males as well.
There has become also an assumption that everyone needs to be the same and the needs of males and females are identical, and that dynamic is not working. We are humans, in that we have something in common, but it seems like a violation of some religious, modern tenet to say that males and females are generally different. Not accepting that leads to a sort of cultural schizophrenia, and there needs to be some cultural existential shift to get us out of that
morass.
I wonder if any of the female generally agree with the above? |
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prideofidaho
Joined: 19 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, sure I generally agree with that. Why wouldn't I? I don't know about relating divorce to gender inequality or imbalance. I think it there might be a slew of reasons there...I dunno.
There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that people are different...but I'd say it is possible for me to be more different from another woman and more similar to another man. That's fair to say.
Also, I only mention dangerous injustice because that's where we can spend our efforts. I think it's better to focus on real tangible problems and solve them rather than sit about and talk about esoteric realities. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| prideofidaho wrote: |
Yeah, sure I generally agree with that. Why wouldn't I? I don't know about relating divorce to gender inequality or imbalance. I think it there might be a slew of reasons there...I dunno.
There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that people are different...but I'd say it is possible for me to be more different from another woman and more similar to another man. That's fair to say.
Also, I only mention dangerous injustice because that's where we can spend our efforts. I think it's better to focus on real tangible problems and solve them rather than sit about and talk about esoteric realities. |
Well, divorce is a complicated thing. Part of why it has risen was because women didn't have much of a choice, but also it was shameful for both men and women to get a divorce, but that was decades ago. Also, in many modern societies where people are much more outer focused, the expectations are higher and often unrealistic.
It is definitely true, that a particular woman could be more similar to another man than another woman. That's definitely true. There will still things tie her to other women just because she was born a woman, and that's something she can learn from just as a man can learn from being born a man.
What solutions do we have for men and women? Well, I think we shouldn't simply focus on sexual education but rather psychologically sound ideas regarding the interaction between men and women and teach adolescents how to optimally interact with the opposite sex and treat each other with respect.
For this to happen, some men and women will have to band together in North America to create a new dynamic paradigm. I am open to being part of a new movement that replaces the dynamic of the aggressive American male and female the excessive focus on duality while not ignoring the duality. There is a delicate balance that's needed, but that comes through understanding, and, really, I think it's hard for people sometimes to accept someone of the other gender. However, it's important to do so in order to grow. Separating yourself from the other gender, whatever the reason, separates you from a natural part of you.
Somehow, we were born men and women together rather than to be asexual and one gender:) |
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aboxofchocolates
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Location: on your mind
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| Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:32 am Post subject: |
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One gender seems like a terrible idea. There aren't enough genders, really. I'd say seventy should be just about enough.
While I think it is a terrible idea to suppress people's desire to express one gender or another, I doubt that is the real cause in growing divorce rates. I suspect it might have more to do with people being skeptical about their ability to achieve long term happiness when their current situation isn't picture perfect and their unwillingness to wait and see if effort will make things better. Or maybe there are many people who made a mistake marrying at all, change as people, etc. Here's a question: what difference does it make? Let people divorce away if they like shelling out the big bucks. |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| My wife acts like a woman and treats me like a man. We have a wonderful relationship. Nearly everybody else I know who's gender roles are off kelter are divorced or soon to be so. |
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aboxofchocolates
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Location: on your mind
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| Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| xingyiman wrote: |
| My wife acts like a woman and treats me like a man. We have a wonderful relationship. Nearly everybody else I know who's gender roles are off kelter are divorced or soon to be so. |
Well, congratulations and I hope your wife and yourself continue with the marital bliss for many years to come.
My mother is a career driven woman who worked many late evenings getting ahead in her job. My father is a bit of a homebody who (in addition to chopping down trees, digging dirt, fixing trucks and performing various other manly tasks) cooks the meals and does the housework. They have been happily married for 33 years. Now that I think of it, most of the happy families I know have work-oriented mothers and family-oriented fathers.
Say, if I generalize from the above anecdote and highly biased observation I would have to conclude that for a marriage to work in contemporary society men must be the homemakers and women the bread-winners�. |
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prideofidaho
Joined: 19 Mar 2008
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| xingyiman wrote: |
| My wife acts like a woman and treats me like a man. We have a wonderful relationship. Nearly everybody else I know who's gender roles are off kelter are divorced or soon to be so. |
I agree that there are general expectations of a man from women and from men vis-a-vis other men no matter how some people try to re-work things. This is not to be confused with a man earning more money than a woman. It is not about how much money you earn. A woman could earn much more than a man, but there are still certain expectations based on biology and it is not simply that men have a certain anatomy that is different from the women. These are, of course, generalities. I have nothing against a woman earning much more than me. That's all great. It would mean more money for the family. |
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aboxofchocolates
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Location: on your mind
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| xingyiman wrote: |
| My wife acts like a woman and treats me like a man. We have a wonderful relationship. Nearly everybody else I know who's gender roles are off kelter are divorced or soon to be so. |
I agree that there are general expectations of a man from women and from men vis-a-vis other men no matter how some people try to re-work things. This is not to be confused with a man earning more money than a woman. It is not about how much money you earn. A woman could earn much more than a man, but there are still certain expectations based on biology and it is not simply that men have a certain anatomy that is different from the women. These are, of course, generalities. I have nothing against a woman earning much more than me. That's all great. It would mean more money for the family. |
I think this is where the nature nurture debate becomes problematic. People will cite all sorts of interesting reasons why reproductive �instincts� heavily influence who we choose as partners. I once had someone try and convince me men are aroused by women wearing lipstick because the lips look like an aroused arrhmmm- not being dirty here, just a comic example.
I don�t think people give enough credit to how deeply our culture becomes our being. An infant can tell the difference between the native language of his culture and an alien culture at one week old. If cultural differences are being perceived out of the womb, how long does it take people to incorporate this into their personality?
I have no doubt that the majority of men in my culture yearn to marry a feminine princess. I greatly doubt they are innately biologically attracted to her. I suspect it has a little more to do with ascetic tastes than biological drive.
For example, take adolescent teen girls and their skinny little androgynous heartthrob superstars. When I was a kid Leonardo Decaprio was all the rage. So here are a bunch of impregnatable females who by most early culture�s standards should be married off popping out the babies and who do they all choose to fall in love with? None-threatening kids much like themselves. Not the uber-protector/provider that you might imagine some freshly hormoned snapper might pick out of the mix if that is what the basic female truly desired.
I am not saying any dude who really likes the feminine type should change his mind- go for it!! You have to know that the �tomboys� are not having a rough time of it, either. To each there own. |
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thewindsong123
Joined: 08 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| feminism is weak in korea. |
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Starla
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| I fail to understand what is meant by the comment that a man acts like a man and a woman acts like a woman. What constitutes femininity? What constitutes masculinity? I've never had to question my own femininity or a man's masculinity and figure each exists within each gender due to our biology. |
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Starla
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
| Here's a question: what difference does it make? Let people divorce away if they like shelling out the big bucks. |
Divorce brings on a slew of social problems and issues children of divorced parents face. Too many to list... |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Starla wrote: |
| I fail to understand what is meant by the comment that a man acts like a man and a woman acts like a woman. What constitutes femininity? What constitutes masculinity? I've never had to question my own femininity or a man's masculinity and figure each exists within each gender due to our biology. |
As far as the tomboy comment, that someone mentioned earlier in French a tomboy is called "un garcon manque" which is translated as a missing boy. In a sense, that female is viewed to have masculine characteristics in terms of the way she expresses herself physically and how she is a hard driver.
There are general ways studies have shown women discuss things and general ways men do so. There are many studies done on how the genders generally differ. They do exist. And women do generally want to relate to men to have some of the stereotypical qualities they associate with them, and I have seen that so many of the North American modern women complain if the men are not acting that way. It creates an imbalance. We wouldn't have the term femininity if it didn't generally exist nor would we have the term masculinity. The two forces, which are both important, need to be in balance and harmony in order to produce healthy societies that are stable and stable families.
There should not be an attempt to dominate females and female energy, because it is a misuse of what the feminine can give on a micro and macro level and harms everyone and the same vis-a-vis the masculine.
This is not to say that people are alike and drone-like and have the same tastes in the opposite sex. People are attracted to different things and there are so many qualities to like.
Good discussion, anyway, you all seem like decent sports.... |
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Starla
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Starla wrote: |
| I fail to understand what is meant by the comment that a man acts like a man and a woman acts like a woman. What constitutes femininity? What constitutes masculinity? I've never had to question my own femininity or a man's masculinity and figure each exists within each gender due to our biology. |
As far as the tomboy comment, that someone mentioned earlier in French a tomboy is called "un garcon manque" which is translated as a missing boy. In a sense, that female is viewed to have masculine characteristics in terms of the way she expresses herself physically and how she is a hard driver.
There are general ways studies have shown women discuss things and general ways men do so. There are many studies done on how the genders generally differ. They do exist. And women do generally want to relate to men to have some of the stereotypical qualities they associate with them, and I have seen that so many of the North American modern women complain if the men are not acting that way. It creates an imbalance. We wouldn't have the term femininity if it didn't generally exist nor would we have the term masculinity. The two forces, which are both important, need to be in balance and harmony in order to produce healthy societies that are stable and stable families.
There should not be an attempt to dominate females and female energy, because it is a misuse of what the feminine can give on a micro and macro level and harms everyone and the same vis-a-vis the masculine.
This is not to say that people are alike and drone-like and have the same tastes in the opposite sex. People are attracted to different things and there are so many qualities to like.
Good discussion, anyway, you all seem like decent sports.... |
I was hoping to hear something along those lines and just wanted it to be articulated in a way other than Korean girls are more feminine than Western women, blah blah, and they wear heels and frilly dresses. Thanks for the explanation.
While I do agree that each gender has certain expectations of the opposite gender in terms of femininity and masculinity, not all women want a super macho man and not all men want a dainty woman. Some men want a woman who's a bit of a tomboy so they can do things together and someone they can relate to as an equal. When I think of older generations of women from more traditional cultures including my own, the women were too compliant and therein earned very little respect from the men. This is feminity gone awry. As for me, a man who talks the loudest and has a swagger does not equal a masculine man. This is a front and a substitute for true masculinity. A man should be in touch with his sensitive side to be a whole man in my eyes. He should be kind to others and be responsible in all his dealings in addition to his dealings with women. That means he should be honest with them and treat them with respect. I find this quality severely lacking in many Western men I've known though I haven't completely given up hope yet. I think many have confused being a man with scoring the most women or being in control of situations with women. To me, this is the antithesis of masculinity. For those who criticize Western women constantly, I think some introspection is in order because not all of these men are the pillars of masculinity in my eyes.
As for the women, well, I don't date them but I can see why some Western men have a problem with some Western women and sometimes I think these women have become rougher as a survival tactic in a society where being soft is not conducive to achieving one's goals. Then they start to expect that roughness from men to balance out their own. In Korea, it's okay for women to speak softly and be non-confrontational which I like because this is my nature. In the states though, I was told by many people including employers and even men I've dated that I'm too nice and I have to be more aggressive. This really bothered me because it went against my nature but a woman in the West has to be this way to not be walked on by others. So I started adopting personality traits that made being respected possible. It's hard to describe but Western society makes it difficult to maintain gender roles which are sound with masculinity and femininity because social expectations are moving toward a uniformity of gender traits. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| if you have kids, you should usually stick it out, at least for appearances. get some on the side, come to a financial/social agreement, but thrash it out. |
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