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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| shaun k wrote: |
| . . .i do believe that creative and critical thinking skills are sort of born into us, and if you dont have it, you dont really have it....like IQ or something, and that while its true that western education fosters and covets their own notion of these abilities. |
I've done a lot of reading on this topic and I've concluded that creativity can be learned. People like Edward De Bono and, in a different way, Doug Hall have shown how.
I also disagree that western education fosters (its notion of) these abilities. I've met very few critical thinkers and only a handful more creative thinkers in my pre-Korea life and in my Korea life I seem to met them in about the same amounts.
It was my contention initially (a long friggin' time ago) that there is no great difference in creative or critical thinking ability between a western individual and an eastern one.
I think the reason that so many foreigners see the lack of critical thinking in particular is because it's easier to see when we're on the outside looking in. But how much do people back home would we consider iconclasts? Even our 'rebel' thinkers have the same thoughts as other 'rebel' thinkers.
When I was a student there was always a group that could espouse the benefits of marijuana and question why society didn't change -- but they all held exactly the same view and that view always started with: "I like marijuana," and from there they proceeded to find reasons to bolster their conclusion (which was actually their start).
There were always people who didn't like gay people, again starting with the conclusion.
Maybe the problem is western education -- we always start with a thesis and strive to prove it.
In any case, I'm tired and rambling. For all the pages of this thread nobody has yet demonstrated to me that Koreans are any less critical or creative thinkers than the folks back home. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I also disagree that western education fosters (its notion of) these abilities. I've met very few critical thinkers and only a handful more creative thinkers in my pre-Korea life and in my Korea life I seem to met them in about the same amounts.
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Maybe you're setting the standard too high for what you will call critical and creative. Western education is certainly more focused on elements that are mentioned in definitions of critical thinking, such as analysis, process, evaluation, making jugements, seeing patterns, synthesising knowledge, while Eastern education is more focused on right and wrong, on learning facts, on listening to the teacher.
And there have been several good proofs that Koreans are not in general as critical and creative that have not been answered, one of them is the way you get such standard answers to certain questions when you don't in the west, proving people here are just believing what they are told rather than questioning it and forming their own opinion. Best case in point, fan death. |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
| And there have been several good proofs that Koreans are not in general as critical and creative that have not been answered, one of them is the way you get such standard answers to certain questions when you don't in the west, proving people here are just believing what they are told rather than questioning it and forming their own opinion. Best case in point, fan death. |
2 examples of lack of critical thinking in Western culture:
- coffee is bad for you
- you should drink 2 liters of water a day (there are a lot of doctors who agree with this, but there is no study supporting it)
Neither is true (coffee is bad for some people, but then again, a fan could give an insanely drunk person hypothermia). |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Water hydrates the brain and increases alertness, and coffee is a diuretic, a dehydrater, and increases the pulse rate ...
Perhaps the idea of two litres is a bit much, but the idea that water is very good for you is sound. |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
Water hydrates the brain and increases alertness, and coffee is a diuretic, a dehydrater, and increases the pulse rate ...
Perhaps the idea of two litres is a bit much, but the idea that water is very good for you is sound. |
Yes. We need water to live, but not in the amounts that have been prescribed.
Yes, coffee is a diuretic and therefore a dehydrater -- but with a normal intake of water no problem, and there's nothing wrong with shitting regulary. There is also nothing wrong with a slightly increased heart rate in a healthy individual, either.
In either case, my point is that nearly all people accept these as truths.
Along the same lines:
- too much television ist bad. -- Why? If our goal is to enjoy our lives and we enjoy watching television, what's the problem? |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| too much television ist bad. -- Why? If our goal is to enjoy our lives and we enjoy watching television, what's the problem? |
This is a disingenuous comparison with the other examples, no one is saying tv is physically unhealthy, when they say bad for you they mean that it is not challenging or interactive like reading and so it doesn't develope the mind ... it's also not a good sourse for all your information about the world if you don't cross reference with reading |
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Tiberious aka Sparkles
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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All sarcasm aside for the moment...
Television made me the thoughtful, intelligent and well-spoken gentleman I am today...
Television and MARIJUANNA!!!
Sparkles*_* |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| There are documentaries I guess, and the odd intelligent humour show like the Simpsons, but in general how is tv going to make you a smart thinking individual? |
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Tiberious aka Sparkles
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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The Learning Channel, History Channel, A&E, etc.
And even the dumbest of shows can teach us something. I learned a lot about prehistoric times from watching The Flintstones.
Sparkles*_* |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
| There are documentaries I guess, and the odd intelligent humour show like the Simpsons, but in general how is tv going to make you a smart thinking individual? |
The same way reading will. Both books and television relate fictional stories about fictional people. Analysis can be applied to either. |
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Rand Al Thor
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Locked in an epic struggle
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| the_beaver wrote: |
| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
| There are documentaries I guess, and the odd intelligent humour show like the Simpsons, but in general how is tv going to make you a smart thinking individual? |
The same way reading will. Both books and television relate fictional stories about fictional people. Analysis can be applied to either. |
The key is very few people analyse anything in their life. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The same way reading will. Both books and television relate fictional stories about fictional people. Analysis can be applied to either. |
The brain is like a muscle, the more you use it the stronger it gets, and tv just doesn't require the same amount of concerntration as reading does, nor does it expand your vocabulary as much, nor does it require you to use your imagination because the pictures are provided for you. Reading also helps you develop a longer concerntration span, while tv is chopped up into easy sound bites ... |
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wormholes101
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:58 am Post subject: |
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There are plenty of things that "we foreigners" believe that are false...
Don't crack your knuckles; it causes arthritis.
Eating carrots is good for your eyes.
Stress and spicy foods cause ulcers.
You'll catch a cold if you go outside with wet hair.
Sitting too close to the television is bad for your eyes
If you swallow gum, it takes seven years for your body to digest it.
Korean fan death is just the same as all of these... It just seems ridiculous to us because we've never heard repeated frequently from our childhood. |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
| The brain is like a muscle, the more you use it the stronger it gets, and tv just doesn't require the same amount of concerntration as reading does, nor does it expand your vocabulary as much, nor does it require you to use your imagination because the pictures are provided for you. Reading also helps you develop a longer concerntration span, while tv is chopped up into easy sound bites ... |
Yes, the brain is like a muscle, and I agree that television can and usually is watched with little brainwork. But that's not to say that it's necessarily so. I used to analysis the news for shits and giggles and that required a lot of thoughtwork (what are they not saying, what approach are they taking, etc.).
Imagination in terms of calling up pictures from the written words of a book is not necessarily of any import. So I can visualize The Great Brain (I loved those books) locale and characters -- what does that do but improve my ability to read books?
I have an interest in cinema and television and acting so when I'm watching television (or a movie) I'm constantly analyzing the camera angles (Why this angle? Why a three-shot instead of two? Why POV instead of over the shoulder?) and acting.
I'm an avid reader but it hasn't helped my concentration much in other areas.
I'm hungry. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Don't crack your knuckles; it causes arthritis.
Eating carrots is good for your eyes.
Stress and spicy foods cause ulcers.
You'll catch a cold if you go outside with wet hair.
Sitting too close to the television is bad for your eyes
If you swallow gum, it takes seven years for your body to digest it.
Korean fan death is just the same as all of these... It just seems ridiculous to us because we've never heard repeated frequently from our childhood.
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It's not that there are specious beliefs floating around the west, it's that they are not believed 'accross the board'. You will find a good amount of westerners who don't believe the things you listed, or that coffee is bad for you, or who don't drink thier 8 glasses of water a day. But in Korea, if not everyone, then at least a huge proportion of people believe in fan death. That shows we have more critical thinking going on, not that everyone in the west is a critical thinker. |
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