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| Given the Biden V Palin debate next week, what is your predicted outcome |
| Biden uterly humiliates Palin |
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59% |
[ 22 ] |
| Palin defeats Biden |
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13% |
[ 5 ] |
| tie |
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13% |
[ 5 ] |
| Palin breaks down in tears |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Biden makes a truly dumb gaffe and by some miracle by where the planets aligned and hell freezes, Palin catches it |
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5% |
[ 2 ] |
| Palin has a family emergency that week or something happens and the VP debate is cancelled |
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8% |
[ 3 ] |
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| Total Votes : 37 |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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 Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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I think that Palin's best strategy would be to aggressively attack, mock, and bait Biden on some dubious stuff he's said and done during his long political career in order to keep him off balence and on the defensive.
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I didn't realize the GOP hired Hindus as operatives. They are a bigger tent party than I was aware of. Read on...
Palin�s new plan: Go after Biden
ST. LOUIS � Sarah Palin plans to go on the attack in tonight�s debate, hitting Joe Biden for what she will call his foreign policy blunders and penchant for adopting liberal positions on taxes and other issues, according to campaign officials involved in prepping her for tonight�s showdown...
By contrast, Biden plans what an aide calls "a just-the-facts, prosecutorial approach laying out the case against McCain and defending Obama." The aide said Biden will be "keeping the eye on the target, which is McCain."
From her debate playbook, as described by McCain officials:
� Throw Biden�s own words back at him.
�There�s going to be a lot of opportunities to use Joe Biden�s words against him � and not his gaffes,� an official said. �When he says raising taxes is patriotic, that�s a policy position. That�s what he believes. She�s going to use those against him.�
(On ABC�s �Good Morning America� last month, in explaining the need for the wealthiest Americans to pay more taxes, Biden said: �It's time to be patriotic ... time to jump in, time to be part of the deal, time to help get America out of the rut.�)
� Highlight past Biden foreign-policy positions as a way to undermine his core strength.
�He�s a celebrated foreign policy expert, but he has been wrong � dating back to the Reagan administration,� the official said. �There are opportunities there for her to jump in.�
One example that was provided was Biden�s reference to North Korea as �a paper tiger� on CBS�s �The Early Show� in 2006. (�I would rather have seen it do exactly what it did, demonstrate to the whole world that it is in fact a paper tiger.�)
Another example noted by the campaign was voting for defense cuts during the Reagan administration, and voting against the first Gulf war in 1991. (PolitiFact.com points out that he voted with the majority of Senate Democrats on the resolution.)
� Highlight places where Biden and Barack Obama have differed, including primary-season statements about Obama�s readiness to lead and his positions on Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan.
�He voted for the Iraq war, and Obama said that was poor judgment,� the official. �There are a lot of wedge positions between Obama and Biden.�
�Portray herself as a working mom and outsider who's been in the real-world, rather than being shielded in the bluster of Washington.
McCain officials say they are optimistic despite her falling credibility and likability in polls.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/14220 |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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�There�s going to be a lot of opportunities to use Joe Biden�s words against him � and not his gaffes,� an official said. �When he says raising taxes is patriotic, that�s a policy position. That�s what he believes. She�s going to use those against him.�
(On ABC�s �Good Morning America� last month, in explaining the need for the wealthiest Americans to pay more taxes, Biden said: �It's time to be patriotic ... time to jump in, time to be part of the deal, time to help get America out of the rut.�)
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Biden can dispense with this quite easily by rattling off some of the salaries of CEOs whose firms are getting bailed out by Washington. I don't know what those salaries are, but they would almost certainly sound astronomical to the average slob. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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One example that was provided was Biden�s reference to North Korea as �a paper tiger� on CBS�s �The Early Show� in 2006. (�I would rather have seen it do exactly what it did, demonstrate to the whole world that it is in fact a paper tiger.�)
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You know, it's funny, because among the expat community over here, including Americans, I don't know too many people who think that North Korea poses a serious threat to anyone. It certainly isn't a concern regularly expressed in the General Discussion forum, for example. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| but they would almost certainly sound astronomical to the average slob. |
Was it Warren Buffett or George Soros who said CEO salaries/compensation should be restricted to 25 times the average income, rather than the 325 times it is for some?
Yes, I think Biden should be able to handle that particular attack pretty easily. He could mention loopholes, too without hurting his case. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Republicans will be holding their breath hoping Palin can make a coherent sentence, regardless of content. I suspect she will play the victim card, no matter what Biden says, hoping she can get the sympathy vote from people who feel sorry for her.
It could be a cringe-worthy night, suitable for the record books. |
Good to see that you and all the others who supported these kinds of predictions coming into the debate were simply and utterly wrong.
J. Biden did not "humiliate" S. Palin last night, let alone "uterly [sic] humiliate" her as twenty posters her so smugly predicted.
Premature trimphalism. This election is not over yet. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| This election is not over yet. |
It will be decided in the courts unless it is an Obama blowout. The Republicans will try to steal the election as they did in 2000 and quite possibly 2004 ("voting irregularities"):
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen
My money is on McCain finding someway to become President. Further, if it is nakedly stolen, African Americans will be tearing apart portions of the inner cities like after the MLK assassination. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| ...African Americans will be tearing apart portions of the inner cities like after the MLK assassination. |
Another testable prediction. I severely doubt it. But anything is possible.
I suppose they could lodge their complaints with Sea Smurf, Mises. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| I just find it amazing people generally considered the debate to have no stand out winner. Geez. Biden is a seasoned politician, decades of hardcore debating. Palin believes in witches. And Biden can't crush her? |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| I just find it amazing people generally considered the debate to have no stand out winner. Geez. Biden is a seasoned politician, decades of hardcore debating. Palin believes in witches. And Biden can't crush her? |
Biden could have, but why risk it? Biden didn't have to crush her. He was a representative of Obama, and Palin is a representative of McCain. Biden just had to enhance his principal's position, and attack McCain.
Palin's worst enemy is herself. Biden can let her stew in it, but if she makes silly points, he can address his own agenda (boosting Obama; hurting McCain). If she makes a good point here and there, he can rebut it civilly.
But Biden took advantage of the fact that McCain's representative was not the most adept at defending McCain. Biden asked, several times explicitly, 'how is it that McCain does not represent a continuation of Bush?' Palin wasn't up to the task of defending McCain. Instead, she kept resorting to talking points.
And as a result, she avoided gaffes. But did she bolster the entire ticket? I'd say no. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| I just find it amazing people generally considered the debate to have no stand out winner. Geez. Biden is a seasoned politician, decades of hardcore debating. Palin believes in witches. And Biden can't crush her? |
Biden could have, but why risk it? Biden didn't have to crush her. He was a representative of Obama, and Palin is a representative of McCain. Biden just had to enhance his principal's position, and attack McCain.
Palin's worst enemy is herself. Biden can let her stew in it, but if she makes silly points, he can address his own agenda (boosting Obama; hurting McCain). If she makes a good point here and there, he can rebut it civilly.
But Biden took advantage of the fact that McCain's representative was not the most adept at defending McCain. Biden asked, several times explicitly, 'how is it that McCain does not represent a continuation of Bush?' Palin wasn't up to the task of defending McCain. Instead, she kept resorting to talking points.
And as a result, she avoided gaffes. But did she bolster the entire ticket? I'd say no. |
I completely agree with this.
Biden didn't need to humiliate her. She did that herself. She's a one-trick pony. Her folksiness does not wear well if it's the only trick she has. She was rude to Biden at the very beginning. It must have been planned to insult him and try to throw him off balance. She came off brassy when she asked if she could call him Joe. The normal thing is to say, "Call me Sarah" and leave it to him to tell her what to call him. She was not folksy. She was rude and brassy. Folksiness can be an effective political tool. She failed to demonstrate that she knows when to use it and when to show other abilities and traits.
Debates are in effect a televised job interview. She winked. She winked during a job interview and mugged for the camera. She gave the impression that she does not respect the dignity of the office of the vice presidency. She's becoming a laughing stock and did little to counter that impression.
Kuros pointed out that she didn't do a good job of defending McCain, which is what she was supposed to be doing. I would go further. She harmed the campaign with her performance. One poll said 18% of independents came out of the debate with a worse impression of her. That's damning if anywhere near accurate. What's worse, millions more watched the VeeP debate than the first presidential debate. Why? The freakshow factor.
A couple of days ago on the Electoral College thread I said the election is over. Barring a major gaffe or scandal of epic proportions directly involving Obama, this election is over. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| This election is not over yet. |
It will be decided in the courts unless it is an Obama blowout. The Republicans will try to steal the election as they did in 2000 and quite possibly 2004 ("voting irregularities"):
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen
My money is on McCain finding someway to become President. Further, if it is nakedly stolen, African Americans will be tearing apart portions of the inner cities like after the MLK assassination. |
It's almost certain to be a blowout. Have you read that article in the Electoral College thread that MilwaukieDave posted about the fivethirtyeight visits to local campaign headquarters? It's worth a read.
Once the election is over, most people will decide to give Obama a chance to show what he can do. His approval numbers will shoot up after the inauguration, up to something like 75%. Over time, as each issue is addressed, some of that support will flake off in a natural way, but it will take a long time. Even Bush still has some supporters. People really do try to give the prez the benefit of the doubt for as long as they can.
If the election is stolen, as you say, it would probably be more than just African Americans rioting in the streets. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| This election is not over yet. |
It will be decided in the courts unless it is an Obama blowout. The Republicans will try to steal the election as they did in 2000 and quite possibly 2004 ("voting irregularities"):
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen
My money is on McCain finding someway to become President. Further, if it is nakedly stolen, African Americans will be tearing apart portions of the inner cities like after the MLK assassination. |
It's almost certain to be a blowout. Have you read that article in the Electoral College thread that MilwaukieDave posted about the fivethirtyeight visits to local campaign headquarters? It's worth a read.
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Nah, I haven't read it yet. I will. But I sure hope you are right about the blowout. I'm becoming more and more of a true believe re: Obama with every passing day. While I still think him a bag of hot air, Taibbi said it best:
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So, sure, Barack Obama might be every bit as much as a slick piece of imageering as Sarah Palin. The difference is in what the image represents. The Obama image represents tolerance, intelligence, education, patience with the notion of compromise and negotiation, and a willingness to stare ugly facts right in the face, all qualities we�re actually going to need in government if we�re going to get out of this huge mess we�re in. |
http://brightideasgroupblog.blogspot.com/2008/09/matt-taibbis-lies-of-sarah-palin.html
Exactly.
And Palin scares the hell out of me. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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"imageering" is a word? Anyway, all politicians engage is shaping a public image. They always have, all the way back to the pharoahs, so it is nothing new and a bit late in the game to start complaining about it. Stated less cynically, but nonetheless true, Obama does stand for "tolerance, intelligence, education, patience with the notion of compromise and negotiation, and a willingness to stare ugly facts right in the face". Not bad things to represent and want to bring to the front of the political table.
Certainly better than 'perkiness'.
I'm convinced that McCain cries himself to sleep at night because he knows he will have 'the' dream again--the dream where Palin walks up to Queen Elizabeth, wrinkles her perky little nose and says perkily, "Hey! Can I call ya Liz?" And then gives her a hug right before the British Secret Service throws her to the floor and aims guns at her head. He wakes up sweating when he hears them pull the trigger.
By the way, McCain is down to trying to pry one electoral vote out of Maine. Had he chosen Olympia Snowe he would have had a fighting chance to win all of Maine's electoral votes. |
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bangbayed
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| I just find it amazing people generally considered the debate to have no stand out winner. Geez. Biden is a seasoned politician, decades of hardcore debating. Palin believes in witches. And Biden can't crush her? |
Biden could have, but why risk it? Biden didn't have to crush her. |
Agreed. This also goes for Obama as well. So many are saying "why doesn't he go harder after McCain?" and asking him to really let him have it, a return to the street-fighting Democrat a la Mario Cuomo. But people have to remember, this is a black guy with Hussein as part of his name and he's running for the president of the USA, currently engaged in two wars in Islamic countries. And he's running against a 'war hero'. And he's winning.
All he needs to do is play it cool and show everyone that his temperament is fit to be president, unlike McCain, whose campaign has quite frankly for the last few months become a circus side-show. Besides, with bloggers and Youtube, that nasty part of the job is really done for him. |
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