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Taiwantroll
Joined: 10 Sep 2006
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 Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:00 am Post subject: Problem with feminism |
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Another post inspired me so I thought I would write my views...
The problem with feminism as I see it is simple, it is bad science. Perhaps that is a poor choice of words, however it is just that. It is an accepted branch of the social sciences and it has had considerable impact' on common thought.
First, the notion of a male-dominated society is flawed. It is flawed because it depends on an agreed upon definition of the term 'power'. And to define 'power', as is done is feminism, lends itself to support the outcome of any feminist research. In other words, if you define power as 'those who work and make money', then that tends to support the notion that men are in power and women are not. But why not define 'power' as 'those that have a primary role in rearing children'. Then clearly women have traditionally held more power than men. One argument is just as valid as the other.
Let's for a moment accept the common definition of 'power'. Feminism tends to suggest that in a male-dominated society men have domination over women. That seems to suggest to me that men choose to dominate women; that there is a conspiracy of sorts; a big men's club to which we all belong. Clearly that is not the case. So the opposite must be true. Men, and women for that matter, have no real choice, or very little choice in such a society. Men are pressured to adhere to social expectations just as women are. Men are pressured to be men and women to be women, according to the roles defined by the society in which they live. So clearly men cannot be blamed anymore than women can be.
Korean society is no exception. I hear how Korean women are treated so poorly by their husbands. That they must do all the work. That they have no choice. But clearly they have just as much choice as men do. They can change or not. It is as simple as that.
Your thoughts? |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:23 am Post subject: |
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your university degree is in mathematics or chemistry?
it's the only explanation for what you wrote |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| Taiwantroll wrote: |
| Your thoughts? |
You're a moron |
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yingwenlaoshi
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: ... location, location!
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| I had a brain fart and I wanted to share the smell. |
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MollyBloom
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Location: James Joyce's pants
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| I hate feminists, and I'm a woman. |
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MollyBloom
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Location: James Joyce's pants
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| I hate feminists, and I'm a woman. |
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IncognitoHFX
Joined: 06 May 2007
Location: Yeongtong, Suwon
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| MollyBloom wrote: |
| I hate feminists, and I'm a woman. |
I'm okay with feminists, but I hate femi-nazis.
I once knew a femi-nazi from New York City. Well, actually she was from New Paltz, NY and liked to tell everyone she was from NYC. She was the caricature of a femi-nazi: uber-strict vegan (whom I caught eating chicken and honey), a man hater who kept getting muddled up with men, and she would go on long tangents about how womyn (that's right: "womyn") were the superior gender.
She thought hospitals were evil because they "tainted" the female baby so she wanted to be a midwife (she pronounced it: "mid-wif" because she hated the word "wife") so she could deliver "baby womyn" in a natural environment instead of a "sterilized, masculine conditioning centre" such as a hospital.
Anyway, she proclaimed this sort of radical femi-nazism was common in New Paltz and New York. She showed me literature from her profs (at her NYC university) about how "womyn" were smarter than men, and she/they would use the word "empower" disturbingly often.
She eventually left my town for two reasons:
1) She would only eat vegan food at vegan restaurants. Vegetarian restaurants weren't good enough nor were restaurants that served meat but had vegan options. She also wouldn't shop at supermarkets that sold meat or dairy in any capacity. She pretended she was starving to death while she lived there yet she was secretly forking in chicken and honey.
2) She thought Canadians were backwards and quaint. She thought we weren't "empowered" enough. She said we needed more "empowered, actualized womyn who were ready to take positions of power in the community".
3) She asked me out and I said no (because I'd go insane). Then she attacked me and I didn't do anything to restrain her because I thought it might help her sanity. I ended up with bruises all over my body. After that, we never spoke again and she left a week later.
That's why I hate femi-nazis. |
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Chloe11
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| MollyBloom wrote: |
| I hate feminists, and I'm a woman. |
I presume then, that you also hate voting, the prospect of owning property, your university education, and a number of other trivial things? |
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Chloe11
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| IncognitoHFX wrote: |
| MollyBloom wrote: |
| I hate feminists, and I'm a woman. |
I'm okay with feminists, but I hate femi-nazis.
I once knew a femi-nazi from New York City. Well, actually she was from New Paltz, NY and liked to tell everyone she was from NYC. She was the caricature of a femi-nazi: uber-strict vegan (whom I caught eating chicken and honey), a man hater who kept getting muddled up with men, and she would go on long tangents about how womyn (that's right: "womyn") were the superior gender.
She thought hospitals were evil because they "tainted" the female baby so she wanted to be a midwife (she pronounced it: "mid-wif" because she hated the word "wife") so she could deliver "baby womyn" in a natural environment instead of a "sterilized, masculine conditioning centre" such as a hospital.
Anyway, she proclaimed this sort of radical femi-nazism was common in New Paltz and New York. She showed me literature from her profs (at her NYC university) about how "womyn" were smarter than men, and she/they would use the word "empower" disturbingly often.
She eventually left my town for two reasons:
1) She would only eat vegan food at vegan restaurants. Vegetarian restaurants weren't good enough nor were restaurants that served meat but had vegan options. She also wouldn't shop at supermarkets that sold meat or dairy in any capacity. She pretended she was starving to death while she lived there yet she was secretly forking in chicken and honey.
2) She thought Canadians were backwards and quaint. She thought we weren't "empowered" enough. She said we needed more "empowered, actualized womyn who were ready to take positions of power in the community".
3) She asked me out and I said no (because I'd go insane). Then she attacked me and I didn't do anything to restrain her because I thought it might help her sanity. I ended up with bruises all over my body. After that, we never spoke again and she left a week later.
That's why I hate femi-nazis. |
Heh. Excellent illustration of why feminazibots are scary. It's important to distinguish them from other feminists. Failure to do so may result in such comments as "I hate feminists, and I'm a woman", which is quite possibly the most ungrateful thing that a western woman could say. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Problem with feminism |
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| Taiwantroll wrote: |
| But why not define 'power' as 'those that have a primary role in rearing children'. |
Why not define blue as green? Your definition of power is lacking in both cases. A more sensible definition of power would be "the ability to make change, to achieve one's desires."
| Quote: |
| Clearly that is not the case. So the opposite must be true. |
This is a logical fallacy. For example, I might say "I'm a totally good person." Clearly this is not the case. So the opposite must be true. Then what's the opposite?
-I'm totally bad.
-I'm only partially good.
-I'm not a person.
Any of these statements could apply.
In the case of your argument re: the domination of women, you've made another fallacious leap here:
| Quote: |
Feminism tends to suggest that in a male-dominated society men have domination over women. That seems to suggest to me that men choose to dominate women; that there is a conspiracy of sorts; a big men's club to which we all belong |
A male-dominated society doesn't require a conspiracy of individual men, consciously choosing to suppress women. All that is necessary is a structure in which gender roles are enforced, in this case, like corporate policies which forbid promoting women beyond a certain level and refuse pay equity (i.e., Samsung et al), or unwritten rules like those idealizing chaste women who marry before they are thirty.
To break free of this requires more than an individual choice. A Korean woman can't simply choose to be paid as much as her peers, or to be treated well regardless of whether she's thin and pretty or not. One can choose to live outside of society's expectations, but to live in a fair and equal society requires a convulsive and comprehensive societal overhaul.[/code] |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Problem with feminism |
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| kermo wrote: |
| Taiwantroll wrote: |
| But why not define 'power' as 'those that have a primary role in rearing children'. |
Why not define blue as green? Your definition of power is lacking in both cases. A more sensible definition of power would be "the ability to make change, to achieve one's desires."
| Quote: |
| Clearly that is not the case. So the opposite must be true. |
This is a logical fallacy. For example, I might say "I'm a totally good person." Clearly this is not the case. So the opposite must be true. Then what's the opposite?
-I'm totally bad.
-I'm only partially good.
-I'm not a person.
Any of these statements could apply.
In the case of your argument re: the domination of women, you've made another fallacious leap here:
| Quote: |
Feminism tends to suggest that in a male-dominated society men have domination over women. That seems to suggest to me that men choose to dominate women; that there is a conspiracy of sorts; a big men's club to which we all belong |
A male-dominated society doesn't require a conspiracy of individual men, consciously choosing to suppress women. All that is necessary is a structure in which gender roles are enforced, in this case, like corporate policies which forbid promoting women beyond a certain level and refuse pay equity (i.e., Samsung et al), or unwritten rules like those idealizing chaste women who marry before they are thirty.
To break free of this requires more than an individual choice. A Korean woman can't simply choose to be paid as much as her peers, or to be treated well regardless of whether she's thin and pretty or not. One can choose to live outside of society's expectations, but to live in a fair and equal society requires a convulsive and comprehensive societal overhaul.[/code] |
You do have a point, Kermo. However, one thing you should note that Koreans generally are people with limited power in their countries. They are dominated by corporations and businesses far more than the West.
This is a society where people often step on each other, and the males may have more mobility and rights, but often they are oppressed and repressed as well. I would definitely understand many a female resenting the oppression of females. There is a long historic suppression of females, but there has also been a collective oppression of most males for millenia. The modern oppression of females in terms of sexism is a definite violation of human rights. Any sexism is a violent manifesation of thought.
Where women visibly don't have a lot of rights as compared to Europe, Canada, and the U.S. you also see the common man with little power. I am sure women in the US had little outward rights in the 1900s, but most black males could not vote at that time. Your average middle class American was exploited severaly in factories, the corporate barons ran everything and controlled people way too much. I think that's often missing from feminist literature. When the rights of men expanded in general, with it also came the rights of women. Just like in France, certain elites wanted more power from the king, but they didn't want to give that to the lower strata of French society, but it was inevitable.
What is need is human rights in general, rather than the simple focus on feminism. Women are human beings who deserve their rights as human beings, just as Christians living in China should have the right to go to a church. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Fortunately, human rights and feminism aren't mutually exclusive. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| Fortunately, human rights and feminism aren't mutually exclusive. |
I was saying the focus should be on invoking human rights and getting away from ideologies and being ideologues so much when it comes to feminism and creating a victim type complex. Victimization is a common phenomena amongst so many groups in society and healing is not done through a continuous focus on that, but rather on finding solutions to the human rights abuses and briding gaps. |
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IncognitoHFX
Joined: 06 May 2007
Location: Yeongtong, Suwon
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| kermo wrote: |
| Fortunately, human rights and feminism aren't mutually exclusive. |
I was saying the focus should be on invoking human rights and getting away from ideologies and being ideologues so much when it comes to feminism and creating a victim type complex. Victimization is a common phenomena amongst so many groups in society and healing is not done through a continuous focus on that, but rather on finding solutions to the human rights abuses and briding gaps. |
When feminism gets so neurotic and obsessive over the smallest details then instances of oppression and victimization are born from nowhere.
Again, more of that drawing a line between feminism and femi-nazi stuff. If you keep seeing yourself as a victim of external forces then you don't deserve to be "liberated" because you're weak. It's the people who take charge of their lives that other people listen to.
That and radical feminism killed (is killing) chivalry on that basis. If I open a door for a girl I don't do it because I think she can't handle it, I do it because I'm trying to be a gentleman and show that I'm kind. It's a very old tradition and not inherently meant to be a way of oppressing women (especially not these days). |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah, sometimes I get so caught up whining about polite men, and victimizing myself that I completely forget about female circumcision, the wage gap, domestic violence, selective abortion, and honour killings, rape, and sexual harassment in the workplace. Silly girl. |
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