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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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 Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| I notice how these liiliputians live: this thug and a couple buddies rule the town. They have few schools. No infrastructure. Little to no education. Their doctors, engineers, and scientists have already fled. Yet they continue to reproduce the fastest in the world. They beat their women. They train other lilliputians to bomb western embassies and targets. And they place their 'egg cracking' on the top of their list. |
You have a very warped sense of Afghani life. And also no sense of their history and struggle. I'm not dignifying the atrocities and injustices but they are just a snapshot of Afghani life.
Every hear of Husserl? you have phenomenological deficit..... experience would be one remedy.
DD |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:48 am Post subject: |
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Kuros wrote,
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Very good demolition of your strawman.
My point was that what happens in Muslim countries is of concern to us. |
I can agree with that. I'm sorry if I mistook your statement,
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And what happens in Muslim countries stays in Muslim countries?
What Muslim country did America occupy on Sept. 11th, 2001, I wonder. |
but it does suggest that America has every right to invade and occupy whoever it wishes/wills / thinks.
Let's not forget - it was not a "Muslim country" that instigated nor undertook the 9/11 attacks. End of arguement.
What Muslim country did America occupy on Sept. 11th, 2001? I took this as a rhetorical question. As far as I know - depends on the term "occupied".
DD |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Kuros wrote,
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Very good demolition of your strawman.
My point was that what happens in Muslim countries is of concern to us. |
I can agree with that. I'm sorry if I mistook your statement,
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And what happens in Muslim countries stays in Muslim countries?
What Muslim country did America occupy on Sept. 11th, 2001, I wonder. |
but it does suggest that America has every right to invade and occupy whoever it wishes/wills / thinks.
Let's not forget - it was not a "Muslim country" that instigated nor undertook the 9/11 attacks. End of arguement.
What Muslim country did America occupy on Sept. 11th, 2001? I took this as a rhetorical question. As far as I know - depends on the term "occupied".
DD |
I didn't really want to address the point about occupying countries.
Things depend on your perspective, and it seems like some posters seem to think only a certain perspective from the U.S. matters and not that of the people of the region, and that's short-sighted and arrogant.
There was no evidence, Iraq was going to invade Saudi Arabia.
At any rate, the military presence in Saudi Arabia, which was long-term, was not taken to well by so many millions of the Arabs of the region and helped trigger problems.
Frankly, I think that the U.S. helped bring out certain Islamic elements out to the forefront who are partially cultivated by the U.S., and some of them were erstwhile allies who were encouraged, because they opposed Arab Leftists who were secular and also opposed the Russians. The religious card was used, and it back-fired.
It may, in the aggregate, help the Arabs deal with some long, present problems, but it has damaged the United States. Frankly, I like the idea of helping the region, but not at the expense of the financial, economic, and long-term stability of the United States, and Bush and company and also his father helped create a mess in the region. I don't buy the statement that Bush senior had no duty to the Kuwaitis to warn Saddam not to invade Kuwait.
The American people have been lied to horribly by Bush senior (though he is a great statesmen and able to handle Machiavellian politics unlike his son and the careless Dick Cheney) with the lie about Iraqi soldiers tossing Kuwaiti babies out of incubators, and then you had the lie about WMD when whatever the Iraqis would have had before 1991 can't last for a long time when it comes to biological warfare weapons. They have a shelf-life, and Iraq had limited capabilities after the war, and the U.S. Government knew Saddam had limited means even if he had some WMD.
I blame the GOP for a lot of the mess. I do not like to criticize the U.S. Government, because it also my government, but the GOP led governments especially have blundered horribly when it comes to the crisis we have now and the problems in the Middle East.
If you think they've done a great job, then I have some radio-active land to sell you. I am just not impressed with what has happened. The GOP at least should have the old Republican guard in charge from the East Coast and of Bush senior's like if they wanted to take such risks like going into Iraq. It would have made sense to have chosen McCain back then, because he is more associated with old fashioned Republicans who know Real Politik rather than being so ideological to the point of blindness.
I could be off-based somewhat, but the politics has been a disaster, and it is disheartening. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
You have a very warped sense of Afghani life. And also no sense of their history and struggle. I'm not dignifying the atrocities and injustices but they are just a snapshot of Afghani life.
Every hear of Husserl? you have phenomenological deficit..... experience would be one remedy.
DD |
Mom! deubel hurt my feelings! We were having a discussion, and he said that I don;t know what I'm talking about because I lack experience! But he didnt give any details as to how I'm wrong! And he thinks we shouldn't have stopped the most evil, oppressive, institutionalized regime on earth!
| ddeubel wrote: |
I didn't really want to address the point about occupying countries.
Things depend on your perspective, and it seems like some posters seem to think only a certain perspective from the U.S. matters and not that of the people of the region, and that's short-sighted and arrogant. |
Mccain and Obama were asked how to deal with evil. Obama said we have think real hard and establish what is evil, and he cautioned about creating more evil in dealing with evils already created by those trying to do good. Or something like that.
Mccain said evil should simply be defeated:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2TaGxB1n-U
The taleban and al-quaida are evil. Help defeat them. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
The US is the only modern Western country which continues to practice state-sanctioned murder in the death penalty. It also has the highest incarceration rate in the world, including that of blacks at a higher rate than apartheid South Africa! |
Where are all of these left-wing conspiracy theorist whackos coming from?? |
Just what part of my above quote is a "conspiracy theory?" |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
The US is the only modern Western country which continues to practice state-sanctioned murder in the death penalty. It also has the highest incarceration rate in the world, including that of blacks at a higher rate than apartheid South Africa! |
Americans scared to protest? Never heard that one before. |
Have you ever attended a political protest in the US? I have attended several in that big bastion of supposed liberalism, New York City. We were made to walk tens of blocks away to get to the protest site, which was not even allowed near the UN at which it was aimed. On another occasion we were corralled in pens like animals while protesting, and on another, charged at by cops mounted on horseback. Another time I was driving by a demonstration and honked my horn in solidarity when I was suddenly surrounded by 10 or 12 cops as I drove slowly up 6th Avenue and made to stop, and given a ticket. It is pretty damn intimidating. And we are the people who continue to go out on the streets. Many people are just too intimidated or cowardly.
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| If you have a problem with the death penalty, then write your congressman. |
You questioned how civilized America is. Its continued use of the death penalty addresses that. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
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| If you have a problem with the death penalty, then write your congressman. |
You questioned how civilized America is. Its continued use of the death penalty addresses that. |
Objection. Relevance. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
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| If you have a problem with the death penalty, then write your congressman. |
You questioned how civilized America is. Its continued use of the death penalty addresses that. |
Objection. Relevance. |
Overruled. State-sanctioned murder is barbaric, i.e. not "civilized." |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: |
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I believe someone said that "he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword". I believe someone on a panel talked about the necessity of using soft power instead of hard power, and to use hard power wisely.
There has been a crude use of hard power, and the U.S. shouldn't try to recreate the world in a certain image by force, it is too difficult and impractical. Lloyd Axworthy, a former Canadian foreign minister, long talked about soft power before it gained much currency on that panel.
I wonder what took some of the politicos so long to use a more diplomatic approach instead of just trying to use brute force. The Taliban are part of Afghan society, and lumping them with Al Qaeda is, perhaps, a form of reductionism. Not all muslims are alike. You can't disregard ethnic differences. It is easy to label this or that as evil and the need to fight evil. How has that worked so well? The US has fought evil, but it was easier to fight it when it was genuine self-defence. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
Have you ever attended a political protest in the US? I have attended several in that big bastion of supposed liberalism, New York City. We were made to walk tens of blocks away to get to the protest site, which was not even allowed near the UN at which it was aimed. On another occasion we were corralled in pens like animals while protesting, and on another, charged at by cops mounted on horseback. Another time I was driving by a demonstration and honked my horn in solidarity when I was suddenly surrounded by 10 or 12 cops as I drove slowly up 6th Avenue and made to stop, and given a ticket. It is pretty damn intimidating. And we are the people who continue to go out on the streets. Many people are just too intimidated or cowardly. |
Fascinating.
| bacasper wrote: |
Overruled. State-sanctioned murder is barbaric, i.e. not "civilized."
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What an enlightened opinion, and how philosophical of you! Perhaps this may be an appropriate topic for you and Micheal Moore's next movie! If you make such a movie, I'll watch it--and perhaps you can change my mind about cap punishment! A better argument is that it is astronomically expensive. But don't tell us these things; tell your friends, neighbours, uncles, and aunts, and write your congressman!
But this is beside the point. What does this have to do with ISAF DOING HUMANITARIAN WORK IN AFGHANISTAN!?!?! |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
Overruled. State-sanctioned murder is barbaric, i.e. not "civilized."
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What an enlightened opinion, and how philosophical of you! Perhaps this may be an appropriate topic for you and Micheal Moore's next movie! If you make such a movie, I'll watch it--and perhaps you can change my mind about cap punishment! A better argument is that it is astronomically expensive. But don't tell us these things; tell your friends, neighbours, uncles, and aunts, and write your congressman!
But this is beside the point. What does this have to do with ISAF DOING HUMANITARIAN WORK IN AFGHANISTAN!?!?! |
I was answering your off-topic question which you seem to have forgotten.
Try pemoline. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
It will always be a "lost" cause.
America and other countries have no more right to be there than Martians.
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They absolutely do.
The Taliban aided and abetted Al Qaeda. They were warned repeatedly, and sheltered and harbored Al Qaeda.
When NATO invaded, they did so by supporting the Northern Alliance, an indigineous group having been oppressed by the Taliban.
NATO has a right to defend themselves. Al Qaeda was acting as an agent of the Taliban, and the Taliban is liable for their actions.
As for the idea that the US will lose we have the following:
A) the opinion of a British diplomat (note, diplomat, not general)
B) the opinions of a few posters who believe that the mission would only be successful if Afghanistan turns into Canada (b/c the US is too barbaric) in the next five years
Why should any of this change my opinion? It does not.
Edit: The ISAF is UN-backed to implement the agreement of the Bonn Agreement
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| The Bonn Agreement calls for a judicial commission to rebuild the justice system in accordance with Islamic principles, international standards, the rule of law, and Afghan legal traditions. |
Last edited by Kuros on Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: |
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The British government is standing behind the diplomat's comments. See today's FT. They want to negotiate with the taliban. Though, they are Commonwealthers, so, really, they don't understand.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/278cca02-933f-11dd-98b5-0000779fd18c.html?nclick_check=1
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Britain risks US rift in war against Taliban
By Jimmy Burns in London and Daniel Dombey in Washington
Published: October 6 2008 03:00 | Last updated: October 6 2008 03:00
The British government yesterday risked fuelling a rift with the US and some members of the Afghan government by supporting a military commander's statement suggesting that the war against the Taliban cannot be won.
A spokesman said the UK's ministry of defence "did not have a problem" with warning the UK public not to expect a "decisive military victory" and to prepare instead for a possible deal with the Taliban. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| NATO has a right to defend themselves. Al Qaeda was acting as an agent of the Taliban, and the Taliban is liable for their actions. |
Well to take your arguement seriously, I'd have to say that I also should be rounded up and shot for aiding Al Qaeda. LOL!
You are wayyyyy off course and no matter how you wrap it up in warped Western "judicialism" - it is just not "just" to invade a country, bomb and kill and torture innocent civilians and destroy the country - all in the name of "they had it coming". Fact is - Al Qaeda was a small part of the Taliban. FACT.
No matter how you wrap it up - it is wrong. Get the bad guy, fight against what's wrong with the Taliban in a civilized way but stop the Ramboism.
You mention the N.Alliance. LOL! They are an excellent example of the whole "emptiness" of the U.S. interventionist approach. There is no morality and no truth. Just the highest bidder. I'm sure I don't have to outline their whole history, do I?
Fact is - in Iraq and Afghanistan - the U.S. (and its pitifully few allies) wouldn't last a minute without buying off #1 the local population #2 its own poor and ideologically sensitive male youth. It is a pimp pure and simple when it comes to its foreign policy during the Bush years.
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As for the idea that the US will lose we have the following: |
They have already lost. They is no way to win. That the leadership of the U.S. (of both parties) doesn't see so - is just fantastical. Says a lot about how policy is run by pretense and not reality.
DD |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| When the US stops Saddam or Al Qeada or the Khomeni followers lives are saved Not the primary reason for US actions but nevertheless those lives count too. When they are stopped it is justice. Anyway if the enemy would give up their war there would be no war. That is who is at fault - not the US. The US is just answering back. |
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