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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| One either complies with an ultimatum or one does not. |
Fair enough. And 7 years later your primary partner in Afganland, the UK, is saying that we can't win and it is time to negotiate. Maybe we coulda cut out the middle part?
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| And who is "colonizing?" This is inaccurate and indeed propagandistic rhetoric. |
America, Nato. Whatever. Invading, removing a government and placing in a friendly government. Then staying, to "finish the job", without a defined job. Colonization. Maybe not in the classical sense. Perhaps we can do the academic thing and attach a "neo". |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Better, make the case and take em' to court. |
And this is how it should have been dealt with. It should have been treated as a horrific crime, with those individuals responsible or connected brought to justice and pursued through legal channels. Instead we just punished thousands (if you include Iraq - hundreds of thousands) of innocents in a very unjust and horrific way - and have done very little at all to eradicate terrorism. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Completely disagree on all points. This thread only reconfirms I am right to vote for the Republicans, win or lose this November. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Completely disagree on all points. This thread only reconfirms I am right to vote for the Republicans, win or lose this November. |
I shall be delighted if they lose. And I shall be the first to send you my (very gleeful) commiserations! |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Completely disagree on all points. This thread only reconfirms I am right to vote for the Republicans, win or lose this November. |
Would you mind explaining how what posters write on this thread determines your vote?
I admit it, Gopher. Your mind fascinates me. (Of course, I have a background in psychotherapy.) |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| You can start by looking at the differences between "to reconfirm" and "to determine," for one thing, Siggy. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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One thing I really appreciate about you, Hans, is that you demand I be precise with my words. I usually am, but with you I must be on my tippy-toes.
So how then do these posters "reconfirm" the vote you plan to make in November? |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:02 am Post subject: |
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I'm confused.
Gopher do you agree that the Powell doctrine should have been properly applied in both Afghan and Iraq?
Do you believe that the Powell doctrine can still be applied?
If so how? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| Completely disagree on all points. This thread only reconfirms I am right to vote for the Republicans, win or lose this November. |
... Your mind fascinates me. (Of course, I have a background in psychotherapy.) |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Lecter |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:38 am Post subject: |
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You guys are cute today. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:43 am Post subject: |
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General Whozit (NOT McClellan) says an Iraqi-style strategy won't work and this Brit diplomat says to just install a dictator and leave.
Are there any actual constructive suggestions out there? It's looking like a good share of the NATO allies are in economic straits, so is there anything to be done? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And who is "colonizing?" This is inaccurate and indeed propagandistic rhetoric. |
America, Nato. Whatever. Invading, removing a government and placing in a friendly government. Then staying, to "finish the job", without a defined job. Colonization. Maybe not in the classical sense. Perhaps we can do the academic thing and attach a "neo". |
The mission is to stabilize Afghanistan's government as agreed by the Bonn Agreement.
There's a lot of talk about the Taliban negotiating and handing over Bin Laden. The problem was that the Taliban didn't have certain control over Bin Laden. It was decided that Bin Laden would escape by the time the Taliban stopped stalling. I think it was a legitimate decision, and I think taking the Taliban at its word is about as naive as trusting Hezbollah or about as naive taking the US at its word. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Jandar wrote: |
| I'm confused. |
What is your understanding of the Powell Doctrine, Jandar?
Examples of it put into practice: Panama 1989; Iraq 1990-1991. Overwhelming force; simple objective; in and out. B. Clinton ignored this in Somalia.
And Afghanistan remains a manhunt and counterinsurgency to support stabilization and nation-building; Iraq was far more ambitious than the Powell Doctrine could allow: rewrite Iraq's program. How do you propose simply resorting to the Powell Doctrine in either of these two places?
Also, it is a mistake to take any strategy as a magical, end-all-be-all of strategies, and then dogmatically apply it in all times and places. Note that C. Powell himself supported the Afghani strategy. It was Iraq that alienated him. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| Completely disagree on all points. This thread only reconfirms I am right to vote for the Republicans, win or lose this November. |
... Your mind fascinates me. (Of course, I have a background in psychotherapy.) |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Lecter |
Joo, I'd like to have you for dinner? Are you free? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Better, make the case and take em' to court. |
And this is how it should have been dealt with. It should have been treated as a horrific crime, with those individuals responsible or connected brought to justice and pursued through legal channels. Instead we just punished thousands (if you include Iraq - hundreds of thousands) of innocents in a very unjust and horrific way - and have done very little at all to eradicate terrorism. |
I agree with the sentiment that we ought bring these people into Court. Absolutely. But how do we get them there in the first place? Are we to sit on our hands as the Taliban delivers them to us?
And before I get any smart riposites, America HAS adopted this policy. Look at Pakistan. They've been entrusted with grabbing Osama Bin Laden. And they're much 'friendlier' than the Taliban.
America was handed a bunch of shit options, and bungled one of the better of them. BB's suggestion makes it sound so easy. Just set a court date and allow Al Qaeda to arrive. Sure. Except that hasn't happened in Pakistan. |
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