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Felix the Cat
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: Medell�n
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 Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:33 pm Post subject: Korea vs. Japan |
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So here we go again - I've been back in the States a few months, which is enough time to remember that I don't like living here any more. I'm tossing around the idea of heading over to Japan to teach for a year or two, and was hoping that some of you have experience in both places. What are the relative merits of Korea and Japan, as in: likelihood of boss cheating you (in my experience, the Korean hagweon boss keeps 10% of what is promised you, on average), social scene, ability to save money, attitudes toward foreigners, and most importantly (so I like to say) the students' attitudes toward learning? I've heard that the Japan has Korea beat in everything except disposable income and students' enthusiasm.
Anyone? |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| You can do a search for that.. lots of information out there. I've posted a link to some website that states out huge differences.. I just can't find it again quickly. But its linked a couple times other places that this same topic has come up as well.. |
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TECO
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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this is the most in-depth and seemingly extremely accurate comparitive analyst I've seen on the subject..
Korea vs. Japan vs. Taiwan:
http://www.geocities.com/esl_korea/TaiwanvsKoreavsJapan.html
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When looking from home Asian countries tend to look pretty much the same, but when you get over here you find they are all quite different. We're going to look at Taiwan/Korea/Japan because they are the big money places in Asia and they are where most people go (unlike Hong Kong/Singapore which have a small demand for ESL teachers, see links for jobs in the little dragons).
So lets compare across a range of things:
Friendliness: Korea is actually by far the most friendly (see the caveat below) esp in the smaller cities like Taejon (1.5 mill) where with just a little bit of charisma you will be treated like a star (some people never want to leave). The larger cities in Korea like Seoul and Pusan have lots of foreigners so you won't cause much of a stir. In Taiwan they tend to treat you more "normally" (although you still get the endless "hellos") so would say its the second most friendly again esp in the smaller cities further south. Japan is not exactly unfriendly its just that they tend to be a bit reserved compared to other Asians.
Racism/Xenophobia: Paradoxically Korea has the most esp in outward behavior (the Japanese have it but tend to be more polite about it). The Koreans are often described as having a chip on their shoulder about foreigners and this is the root cause of many foreigners getting ripped off and being unhappy in Korea. Some say its because the foreigners don't adjust to a new culture but if this was the causal reason there would be similar complaints by foreigners in other Asian countries like Taiwan but thats not the case.
Politeness/Forthrightness: Japanese are extremely polite even with strangers. The bus drivers there will generally thank everybody that gets off. On the other hand they often won't tell you what they really think/feel. Koreans are quite different from most Asians. They can be quite rude with strangers to say the least esp in the larger cities like Pusan (Seoulites though are more polite) where people will typically push in front of any lines etc. If you know them though, and you have status in the pecking order, Koreans can be very polite (they have a very hierachial social system like the Japanese). Also Koreans are generally very open in telling people what they think/feel and you often hear them arguing away. By contrast the Taiwanese are mellow and reasonably polite by Western standards but again like the Japanese they often conceal what they really feel (we would say "two faced" although they're just avoiding direct confrontation as is the Confucian way).
Money saving potential: Japan generally pays the most but its also extremely expensive (the most expensive in the world according to surveys). At the high end (university jobs etc) its by far the best place to make money in Asia. For just general jobs at private language schools its easier to save money in Korea and Taiwan because its so much cheaper. You can save money in Japan but you can't do so and live like you can in Korea/Taiwan at the same time. Taiwan and Korea are fairly similar although conditions in Taiwan vary a lot. See The Japan Myth for a more detailed comparison. Bottom line you can save US$1000/mth before overtime/privates for 30 hours per week in all three countries (although in Japan you will have to work longer hours or be very frugal).
Language Schools: Korea is probably the least demanding at least on the face of it. Japan is also easy in that you can often just clown around a lot but they tend to demand more prep time, it can involve traveling time to jobs that they farm you out to and and you're often under pressure to renew students. In Taiwan by contrast generally you actually have to actually teach. The schools can be quite demanding and the parents are even more so. The mothers put the kids in for a day or two to see whether they like it and the mothers may check up on your classes though the window or whatever. They are also very particular about how you teach their children etc. Eg they wanted me to do a hook on the bottom of a small t. I had to explain to them this was a stylized t and not a normal written t. Taiwan can also involve a lot of prep at some schools for the same reason (parents putting a lot of pressure on the schools). Despite all this though I found Taiwan easier than Korea even if you do have to work at teaching. Why? The kids are usually much better behaved and actually expect to work. Sure in Korea you can clown around but having kids screaming and jumping around can actually be the most exhausting of all. Also on a personal level I find it's much more satisfying to actually be teaching. In Japan the kids tend to be very quiet and docile so teaching is easy although some find getting the kids to respond difficult.
Lying and cheating on contracts: Korea has a chronic problem in this area. Roughly at least 1 in 7 schools are bad news. Strangely Taiwan society is more corrupt generally but you don't hear the horror stories that come out of Korea although things like petty lying and cheating are even more common (the Chinese god is money!). Also regards Korea the Korean teachers at the schools don't get ripped off anywhere like what the foreign teachers do. In other words it seems to come back to Koreans ambivalent feelings about foreigners. Japan has hardly any problems and if you do their visa situation is such that you can easily change jobs (you own the work visa, not your employer unlike in Taiwan/Korea).
Climate: Korea/Japan have four distinct seasons generally, with temperatures from freezing (avoid northern Japan) to sweltering. Taiwan is sub tropical so it tends to rain in summer and be very hot a lot of the year (air conditioning is fairly common). Whats your preference?
Food: Korean food is usually the most popular because it has the most flavor (they use a lot of chili). Taiwan food can be a bit bland but chilli is usually available if you know how to ask. Japanese food is everywhere and Taiwan is more cosmopolitan than Korea so its easier to get German/Italian/French food etc and even Korean food (in Taipai) if you miss it. Seoul has a few foreign restaurants but even their second biggest city Pusan has bugger all. They had just one Thai restaurant there but it closed down because it wasn't popular enough apparently. Japan is also a little bland but theres just so much variety. Its a gourmets delight. Even at just your local 7-11 you can get a meal of rice and fourteen odd side dishes for only 500 yen. Taiwan is the only place for vegetarians, theres a ton of vegetarian restaurants, you should never be far from half a dozen places. Fast food hamburger joints are very common in all three countries for your Western fix.
Job opportunities: Still reasonable to plentiful in most areas. Korea is generally the easiest place to get work despite there being lots of teachers looking in Korea. Their typical free airfare/accommodation deal for poor students looking to pay off their student loans is very popular. For each ad they might receive 30-50 resumes. Fortunately theres also lots of ads. Japan can be competitive, its very popular, the exotic east and all that, but theres still plenty of work if you have what it takes (young, personable, good looking). Taiwan has plenty despite all the importing of cheap South African labor although Taipei is a bit overrun these days.
Environment: Asia is generally not known as the land of clean air! All three countries burn a lot of their rubbish to avoid taking up precious landfill space. Having said none of the major cities like Seoul, Taipei, Tokyo is much different from a major city in the States like LA or NY. See the FAQ for a graph comparing them. Taiwan does stand out in a one major respect and that is with their chronic littering (outside Taipei). Its not a pretty sight and this is a reason often sighted by those prefering Korea. Beautiful forested mountains which comprise some 70% of their land areas are usually never far away in these countries to escape away to if you want on the weekends.
Special contract extras: Korea wins hands down with their free airfare/ accommodation deal. Sure you can often get that in Taiwan in the countryside if you go over first and occasionally in Japan but its not the norm. Without this free set up and move deal al arranged from overseas usually via the internet a lot of their teachers wouldn't be there. Japan in contrast can have hugh set up costs although you can try and get your foot in the door cheaply through a company like NOVA (rather than arriving and beating the feet while haemorrhaging money in the most expensive country in the world).
Another plus with Korea is that even if you just have a BA, you can often work yourself into a sweet university position after a couple of years with long paid vacations if you have good contacts.
Taiwan is unique in often providing assistant teachers especially in the kindergartens. This can be a mixed blessing though and they are also known as "resistant" teachers. Why? Well they are meant to help you but usually they try to do as little as possible and are often engaged in backbiting (while smiling sweetly). How come? Unlike in Korea the Chinese teachers may not even have graduated from high school and may not get paid very much unlike the foreign teachers who may earn eight times as much as a part-timer. And then the foreign teacher, who's only their because the parents demand it, expects them to control the class for them. Naturally this can breed "a little" resentment.
Boozing or partying opportunities: Korea wins here. They're a nation of boozers, its reasonably priced and you can really go to town. The Japanese also drink a lot but its a touch expensive and forget about nightclubs. Taiwan has similar prices to Korea but traditionally they drink tea not alcohol. It (and Japan) just don't have the same crazy, party atmosphere that Korea has.
Bottom line: It depends on your preferences/situation. Theres a lot of factors. Korea draws a lot of first timers, poor, newly graduated students with their offer of free tickets over. Its good if you don't have many financial options, like to party, or your main priority is to save money over cultural experience (not many tourists in Korea).
The moneys not in Japan liked it used to be but it still lures those chasing the big money if you have good qualifications and its the only first world country of the three with clean streets, clean water etc. A wonderful experience.
Taiwan is an opportunity to live it up while still saving good money and not having to put up with the racism/xenophobia in Korea. |
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jack_daniels
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:45 pm Post subject: Japan Vs. Korea |
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I have taught in both places. It all depends on your qualifications and what you think is important in life.
In Korea, foreigners are denied tenure and higher job positions regardlesss of how well-qualified or skilled they are. In my case, I had done all I could do in Korea. No matter how much I published and regardless of my higher degrees, I was never going to be a tenured professor or paid equally with Korean professors.
I made the move to Japan a few months ago and am glad I did. I am tax free for the first two years and my salary is over 5 million won/month and increasing because of the yen's rise in value. I would not even consider doing private lessons now, but in Korea I had to when I did not have other sources of income.
Most important of all, I am an assistant professor, not that lame thing Koreans call "visiting professor," which lumps together all foreigners, regardless of background and ability.
At my present job, I teach graduate students, supervise theses and teach strictly content-based courses. My expertise is really valued; in Korea, I was expected to teach conversation courses. As some of my co-workers in Korea were occasionally backpakers, liars (at least two fake degree holders) and alcoholics, it didn't do much for the self-esteem.
In Korea I was never given research money. In Japan, I get travel grants and research money that amount to about 6 million won/year. This allows me to finance trips to family in Canada and Korea, if I can find a conference or creative way to justify my grant.
I was surprised a couple of times by my university's generosity. Upon arrival, I was given an envelope with about 1.3 million won in cash to spend as I pleased. Also, my wife does not work, so she gets about 250,000 won/month as my "dependent."
I do miss some things about Korea. The restaurants are far better in Korea and more reasonably priced. There are more places to chill out and have a beer. In Japan, they often gouge you when you eat out. In Osaka, my wife and I were charged about 40,000 won for two plates of spaghetti and two beers. They slapped 3,000 won charges on both of us and added a 10% VAT AND regular taxes. So we paid 30% for nothing, basically.
This happened once, but the restaurants are overpriced and dull compared to their Korean counterparts.
On the other hand, since I am older now and married I am not interested in partying and going out that much. In my 20s and mid-30s I was, but now I am content to sit at home and drink 1 or 2 beers. I imagine many cities in Japan could be boring for a single person in his or her 20s.
If you have a BA and are going to work in an institute, I would advise you to go to Korea. The pay for institute teachers in Japan has not changed much since the 80s. Institute teachers, while not ripped off in Japan as often as in Korea, do not take home the money or have as much spending power in Japan. I think most institute teachers go to Japan for the cultural experience, not the money. Or they go to improve professionally.
I think Korea is best for people with BAs, little experience and, I'm sorry to say, less talent. You get a real mix of people, from low quality bums to professionals who are serious about teaching. The thing is, there are talented foreign teachers in Korea, but they are not treated with any more respect or paid better than the untalented and unqualified. In Japan, the attitude is more professional by far. Professors are expected to publish and do duties that normal professors do -- and they get paid for their hard work. More is expected from institute teachers as well. But, as I said, if you are an institute teacher and you do not have any great ambitions except saving money, Korea is the better deal. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:58 pm Post subject: Re: Japan Vs. Korea |
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| jack_daniels wrote: |
| On the other hand, since I am older now and married I am not interested in partying and going out that much. In my 20s and mid-30s I was, but now I am content to sit at home and drink 1 or 2 beers. I imagine many cities in Japan could be boring for a single person in his or her 20s. |
Thats always been one of my concerns. I mean sure Japanese girls are nice to look at and such. But gathering up the money to go out seems challenging.
I recall a trip to Tokyo where just had what would have been a typical dinner in Seoul and would have cost me 20,000 won for my share maximum. In Tokyo, it was $100 each for the meal with a couple drinks.  I suppose if you lived in Japan you'd eat home a lot more as well as know the rock bottom priced places to go to when you went out. |
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TECO
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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I averaged about 5,500,000 won per month working in Tokyo.
I lived with my girlfriend and we split the cost of our apartment. That was a BIG financial break for me and allowed me to bank most of my money.
It is expensive but if you can keep your living costs down you can bank a lot of cash. I did that for a good 2 years and am glad I took advantage of the situation while I could. |
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adventureman
Joined: 18 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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How about Japanese women vs. to their Korean counterparts? Aside from looks, I mean  |
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TECO
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:02 am Post subject: |
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I love this thread  ...I know we've talked about this stuff on several other threads but I never get tired of talking about JAPAN!!!
Japanese women are AWESOME!!! |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| TECO wrote: |
I averaged about 5,500,000 won per month working in Tokyo.
I lived with my girlfriend and we split the cost of our apartment. That was a BIG financial break for me and allowed me to bank most of my money.
It is expensive but if you can keep your living costs down you can bank a lot of cash. I did that for a good 2 years and am glad I took advantage of the situation while I could. |
I think the key words here for Japan:
Share apartment
Have girlfriend
If you can combine the two, would be a great place.. particularly with the money considerations and going-out-costs kept to a minimum.
Just my impression.. |
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