|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
 Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:20 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Starla wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Starla wrote: |
| I fail to understand what is meant by the comment that a man acts like a man and a woman acts like a woman. What constitutes femininity? What constitutes masculinity? I've never had to question my own femininity or a man's masculinity and figure each exists within each gender due to our biology. |
As far as the tomboy comment, that someone mentioned earlier in French a tomboy is called "un garcon manque" which is translated as a missing boy. In a sense, that female is viewed to have masculine characteristics in terms of the way she expresses herself physically and how she is a hard driver.
There are general ways studies have shown women discuss things and general ways men do so. There are many studies done on how the genders generally differ. They do exist. And women do generally want to relate to men to have some of the stereotypical qualities they associate with them, and I have seen that so many of the North American modern women complain if the men are not acting that way. It creates an imbalance. We wouldn't have the term femininity if it didn't generally exist nor would we have the term masculinity. The two forces, which are both important, need to be in balance and harmony in order to produce healthy societies that are stable and stable families.
There should not be an attempt to dominate females and female energy, because it is a misuse of what the feminine can give on a micro and macro level and harms everyone and the same vis-a-vis the masculine.
This is not to say that people are alike and drone-like and have the same tastes in the opposite sex. People are attracted to different things and there are so many qualities to like.
Good discussion, anyway, you all seem like decent sports.... |
I was hoping to hear something along those lines and just wanted it to be articulated in a way other than Korean girls are more feminine than Western women, blah blah, and they wear heels and frilly dresses. Thanks for the explanation.
While I do agree that each gender has certain expectations of the opposite gender in terms of femininity and masculinity, not all women want a super macho man and not all men want a dainty woman. Some men want a woman who's a bit of a tomboy so they can do things together and someone they can relate to as an equal. When I think of older generations of women from more traditional cultures including my own, the women were too compliant and therein earned very little respect from the men. This is feminity gone awry. As for me, a man who talks the loudest and has a swagger does not equal a masculine man. This is a front and a substitute for true masculinity. A man should be in touch with his sensitive side to be a whole man in my eyes. He should be kind to others and be responsible in all his dealings in addition to his dealings with women. That means he should be honest with them and treat them with respect. I find this quality severely lacking in many Western men I've known though I haven't completely given up hope yet. I think many have confused being a man with scoring the most women or being in control of situations with women. To me, this is the antithesis of masculinity. For those who criticize Western women constantly, I think some introspection is in order because not all of these men are the pillars of masculinity in my eyes.
As for the women, well, I don't date them but I can see why some Western men have a problem with some Western women and sometimes I think these women have become rougher as a survival tactic in a society where being soft is not conducive to achieving one's goals. Then they start to expect that roughness from men to balance out their own. In Korea, it's okay for women to speak softly and be non-confrontational which I like because this is my nature. In the states though, I was told by many people including employers and even men I've dated that I'm too nice and I have to be more aggressive. This really bothered me because it went against my nature but a woman in the West has to be this way to not be walked on by others. So I started adopting personality traits that made being respected possible. It's hard to describe but Western society makes it difficult to maintain gender roles which are sound with masculinity and femininity because social expectations are moving toward a uniformity of gender traits. |
Jkelly, I am not sure what you meant by sticking it out with kids? What brought that up? I do believe people should have solid relationships if kids are involved, but relationships are not about kids per se, because many people don't have kids. It's how two people who decide to couple interact with each other as man and woman.
Back to Starla, men do like women who are sweet in many cases, but they also like her to be strong somewhat. I would say you can't really say the West in this case, but rather the United States and to a lesser extent Canada. However, in Western Europe, as in North America, there is an increase in the divorce rate. I don't think it is simply to do with women not being compliant and having more choices and the men haven't kept up. I think both the males and females have to some extent changed in ways that haven't really led to optimal relationships required for very healthy societies.
Many of the modern societies are very outward looking, materialistic.
It is not simply that feminism emerged in North America in a certain way
and men also ceased to be as kind and respectful as they were in the past in the aggregate.
I do agree that men should not overexaggerate their masculinity by just being an aggressive bad boy to the maximum. That's a natural part of being a guy, I think, but there should be some balance. You still have obligations to the family, people around you, the woman in your life etc....
Exaggerating the aggressive side of males leads to problems as we've seen in the U.S. Also, pushing women to be more aggressive like males and mimic them involves copying a bad model. Women and men have to be able to meet each other's needs somehow by being healthy.
There was a movie called "What women want". I think most women want to be treated with respect, to see some strength from a man, but not a desire to dominate her but capable of leading if need be, and many a modern woman wants a man who is secure in letting her lead, because often in many situations she is more capable of doing it. She wants a male who is attentive, pays her mind, remembers thing, says thing that makes her feel special, he treats her with respect, surprises her.
Does something unexpected in a good way. He has some class here and there.
As far as Western men not showing enough respect, that used to be more of a case back then, but I think in many ways men of the 21st century are less respectful than their fathers and grandfathers.
These men were raised by men and women and by those who control the media. With the images men see out there, it is easy to not respect women. That's the sad truth. Sexuality is a powerful force, and men are encouraged to use their sexuality improperly to the detriment of women, and it's all so the big industries can sell stuff. In the end, we are all commodotized. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
nebraska1
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: Judge, Some people just need killin!
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ReeseDog wrote: |
| Bramble wrote: |
What a waste of time.  |
Agreed.
Feminism is an utter waste of time. |
That's right! Why who do them there women think they are voting and such. How dare they get paid the same as a man ...for chrissakes everyone knows they go to university to get an Mrs. not a PHd. nudge nudge wink wink.
I suggest you move to a nice radical Muslim theocrazy (intentional) where you can beat your wife. She has to be covered. She can't work. She can't drive a car and you can kill her with little or no repercussion.
Durn feminists anyhoo...ruined a good thing dontcha know!
N1 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Starla
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Adventurer wrote: |
| I would say you can't really say the West in this case, but rather the United States and to a lesser extent Canada. However, in Western Europe, as in North America, there is an increase in the divorce rate. I don't think it is simply to do with women not being compliant and having more choices and the men haven't kept up. I think both the males and females have to some extent changed in ways that haven't really led to optimal relationships required for very healthy societies. |
You're right. I was thinking more along the lines of the U.S. since that's what I'm most familiar with. I just said West because I've heard it happens in some parts of Western Europe but since I haven't lived there, I might be wrong. All I know is that in my home country in Eastern Europe, the divorce rate is low compared to the U.S. but then again, it is tougher to get a divorce and Poland is predominantly Roman Catholic. I find that the more conservative the country, the lower the divorce rate although there might be some exceptions of course. Here are some statistics from 2006.
http://nitawriter.wordpress.com/2007/04/04/divorce-rates-of-the-world/
And a more recent one apparently:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_div_rat-people-divorce-rate |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Starla wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| I would say you can't really say the West in this case, but rather the United States and to a lesser extent Canada. However, in Western Europe, as in North America, there is an increase in the divorce rate. I don't think it is simply to do with women not being compliant and having more choices and the men haven't kept up. I think both the males and females have to some extent changed in ways that haven't really led to optimal relationships required for very healthy societies. |
You're right. I was thinking more along the lines of the U.S. since that's what I'm most familiar with. I just said West because I've heard it happens in some parts of Western Europe but since I haven't lived there, I might be wrong. All I know is that in my home country in Eastern Europe, the divorce rate is low compared to the U.S. but then again, it is tougher to get a divorce and Poland is predominantly Roman Catholic. I find that the more conservative the country, the lower the divorce rate although there might be some exceptions of course. Here are some statistics from 2006.
http://nitawriter.wordpress.com/2007/04/04/divorce-rates-of-the-world/
And a more recent one apparently:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_div_rat-people-divorce-rate |
It is true that the divorce rate is lower in some conservative countries, but then you might have women turn around and go against your argument and say that it's because women don't have much of a choice socially. Of course, the problem with that is that in Canada the divorce rate is at 37% versus the 54% in the U.S.
Canada is more conservative than in the U.S. in terms of promoting harmony, unity, trying to work out differences calmly in general, some socialism is accepted, but there isn't really much of a religious conservatism as exists in the U.S. Also, you can notice that Switzerland the divorce rate is low, and I am sure women are quite active in that country. I think it has to do with ideology and how men and women have been affected and how people accept differences that naturally occur between the sexes and how the women are tolerant or intolerant of such differences and their mental expectations. That is what say Switzerland and Canada may have more in common with old fashioned traditional countries in some ways when compared to the U.S.
If you go by such stats, you would think that a guy or girl dating a Canadian girl or guy may have somewhat better chance of getting along with that person someone from the U.S. I think the cultural temperature needs to be taken down in the U.S., a re-education of the people somehow. The U.K. is also having many serious social problems and a very high divorce rate and some of the Nordic countries. It's not healthy to have such a high rate, I think, not that we should simply look at the rates and judge countries like that. A country just emerging from a very conservative, old-fashioned way would have to be judged differently.
So you are originally from Polska? That's cool:) You must like borscht.
I like that stuff. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Starla
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Adventurer wrote: |
It is true that the divorce rate is lower in some conservative countries, but then you might have women turn around and go against your argument and say that it's because women don't have much of a choice socially. Of course, the problem with that is that in Canada the divorce rate is at 37% versus the 54% in the U.S.
Canada is more conservative than in the U.S. in terms of promoting harmony, unity, trying to work out differences calmly in general, some socialism is accepted, but there isn't really much of a religious conservatism as exists in the U.S. Also, you can notice that Switzerland the divorce rate is low, and I am sure women are quite active in that country. I think it has to do with ideology and how men and women have been affected and how people accept differences that naturally occur between the sexes and how the women are tolerant or intolerant of such differences and their mental expectations. That is what say Switzerland and Canada may have more in common with old fashioned traditional countries in some ways when compared to the U.S.
If you go by such stats, you would think that a guy or girl dating a Canadian girl or guy may have somewhat better chance of getting along with that person someone from the U.S. I think the cultural temperature needs to be taken down in the U.S., a re-education of the people somehow. The U.K. is also having many serious social problems and a very high divorce rate and some of the Nordic countries. It's not healthy to have such a high rate, I think, not that we should simply look at the rates and judge countries like that. A country just emerging from a very conservative, old-fashioned way would have to be judged differently.
So you are originally from Polska? That's cool:) You must like borscht.
I like that stuff. |
I think each country has to be taken on a case by case basis because there are many factors that contribute to divorce. All I know is that the rate is increasing worldwide and like you said, there is something definitely wrong going on and it's not healthy.
Too many people want a perfect mate which I'm afraid does not exist. Too many people seem to look at marriage as temporary and bail out too easily. They're more focussed on instant gratification than the long-term rewards of something long-lasting. They're more focussed on themselves than the other person. I think that's what it boils down to. We've become a world culture that wants instant rewards. We want great relationships without putting in the work that's required of that and tempering the hardships like our elders did. What people in my family did to keep marriages together most people nowadays would not do though I don't know if that's good or bad. I think there needs to be a balance of giving it your best shot but also leaving when a relationship cannot be salvaged.
And yes, I'm from Polska but I doubt I'll be having any borscht any time soon. Haven't seen any beets or sour cream in this town yet.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
